Humility + Decree of Justice

I've always been in love with the idea of Humility shutting down the most oppressive creatures in Vintage such as Monastery Mentor, Lodestone Golem, etc. but I've always reasoned that it just wasn't good enough to be played. However, in the past we've seen Moat be an effective answer to aggro decks. Is it possible that Humility could be just as effective against aggro, with the benefit of having the reach to impact other matchups? Pretty much every Vintage deck utilizes creatures as a main part of their strategy nowadays. In combination with Decree of Justice, could Humility be an effective strategy in Vintage?

@desolutionist I love humility just like I've always loved Moat. To me, the problem has become sticking anything vs FoV. That card is a monster, and dredge/hollowvine (which this best impacts) always has a FoV at the ready (usually with counterspell backup). Since they don't play lands, they get 12 extra slots for 4x FoV + 8 free counters, and it just really hard to land any artifact/enchantment that lives more than a turn.

I honestly don't know if they've changed the layering rules in the past few years, but I think Humility'd creatures retain their bonus from +1/+1 counters. That means a Humility will actually make every creature in a Workshop deck except Foundry Inspector bigger. With Shop-Aggro representing such a big portion of the aggro decks in the format, it really dampens how flexible the card would be in Vintage specifically.

@brass-man

It stops the enters the battlefield triggers though, if I'm not mistaken. So you have to get it down first.

@vaughnbros You mean the "enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters" on Ballista, Walker, etc? That's not an ETB trigger, they just come in with those counters.

@revengeanceful said in Humility + Decree of Justice:

@vaughnbros You mean the "enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters" on Ballista, Walker, etc? That's not an ETB trigger, they just come in with those counters.

The rules text regarding this was changed in 2017. Creatures that "enter the battlefield with" no longer gain the with.

Rules text for clarity:
614.12. Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c–d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent’s own static abilities that would apply to it once it’s on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.

Thanks for the clarification, that definitely makes the card more useful in that matchup than I thought. Of course, as a 4-drop it's pretty unlikely to come down before the board is already crowded. That's not a dealbreaker, I think it just means you can't have this be part of your anti-Workshop strategy without a plan for how to answer their threats from the first few turns. Swords to Plowshares is an obvious choice in the same color as Humility, Hurkyl's Recall on their end step the turn before you hit 4 mana seems pretty nice, too.

Humility is also bad against oko, just generally which is a real concern in vintage I would think.

I’ve been playing Premodern, where Humility is more commonly found in UW Landstill (along with Decree of Justice) so I’m imagining it in a UW Landstill deck as a 1 or 2 of. And Decree kind of offsets the potentially of just being overrun by 1/1s.

The power creep on creatures is unreal. They almost always at least replace themselves. In the Monastery Mentor example, when it was a legal 4-of, there weren’t many good answers for it: Humility could have been. It’s also a good enough card to stop things like Snapcaster Mage.

If you can get it down fast enough (like turn 1) then it could be useful for slowing down Hollow Vine. So maybe it’s even better in a powered deck that has enough acceleration to pull that off and cycle a large Decree.

Anyway not much was going on here and I really like the card, so I just I wanted to share.

@garbageaggro said in Humility + Decree of Justice:

Humility is also bad against oko, just generally which is a real concern in vintage I would think.

Just curious. Why is it bad against Oko? I thought creatures don’t really matter when Humility is in play? So if creatures don’t matter then what is Oko doing?

It seems to be the biggest drawback of Humility other than the mana cost is being Disenchanted or Force of Vigored.

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@desolutionist said in Humility + Decree of Justice:

@garbageaggro said in Humility + Decree of Justice:

Humility is also bad against oko, just generally which is a real concern in vintage I would think.

Just curious. Why is it bad against Oko? I thought creatures don’t really matter when Humility is in play? So if creatures don’t matter then what is Oko doing?

It seems to be the biggest drawback of Humility other than the mana cost is being Disenchanted or Force of Vigored.

Percistent effects and timing. Oko can make an army of 3/3s even with humility out.

@brass-man said in Humility + Decree of Justice:

I honestly don't know if they've changed the layering rules in the past few years, but I think Humility'd creatures retain their bonus from +1/+1 counters. That means a Humility will actually make every creature in a Workshop deck except Foundry Inspector bigger. With Shop-Aggro representing such a big portion of the aggro decks in the format, it really dampens how flexible the card would be in Vintage specifically.

You are absolutely correct. Rules text below. Basically, power and toughness-setting abilities are applied in Layer 1 and then things that modify power and toughness are applied later. You can make a funny deck using Humility and creatures that have +1/+1 counters. You will have the biggest dorks on the board!


**613. Interaction of Continuous Effects613.1.
The values of an object’s characteristics are determined by starting with the actual object. For a card, that means the values of the characteristics printed on that card. For a token or a copy of a spell or card, that means the values of the characteristics defined by the effect that created it. Then all applicable continuous effects are applied in a series of layers in the following order:

613.1a Layer 1: Rules and effects that modify copiable values are applied.

613.1b Layer 2:Control-changing effects are applied.

613.1c Layer 3:Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, “Text-Changing Effects.”

613.1d Layer 4:Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object’s card type, subtype, and/or supertype.613.1e

Layer 5:Color-changing effects are applied.

613.1f Layer 6:Ability-adding effects, keyword counters, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can’t have an abilityare applied.

613.1g Layer 7:Power-and/or toughness-changing effects are applied

613.2. Within layer 1, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.7). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.8.)

613.2a Layer 1a: Copiable effects are applied. This includes copy effects (see rule 706, “Copying Objects”) and changes to an object’s base characteristics determined by merging an object with a permanent (see rule 721, “Merging with Permanents”).“As . . . enters the battlefield”and “as . . . is turned face up”abilities generatecopiable effectsif theyset power and toughness, even if they also define other characteristics.

...

706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield”and “as . . . is turned face up”abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics).**

If Oko can make 3/3s under humility, then might it be better to play both in a Bant list? Oko is a house all on his own, and if you are cranking out 3/3s to their 1/1s (and Oko's +s will survive 1/1 attacks all day), it seems you can avoid bad cards like decree and have a great board advantage. Also, access to your own FoV and, of course...blue.

To provide context, the rules change that is being referred to is from Ixalan and most relevantly changed how Blood Moon worked, removing things like lands come into play tapped and Dark Depths comes into play with 10 ice counters. The article specifically states that with the new rules "Humility causes creatures with modular to enter without their +1/+1 counters."

The creature never has +1/+1 counters in this scenario because the ability that grants the +1/+1 counters is ignored. If a card in play already has +1/+1 counters or is given +1/+1 counters, you apply the layers above and a 3/3 Walking Ballista becomes a base 1/1 in 613.4b and gets the bonus from counters in 613.4c. The result is a 4/4 Walking Ballista. It of course loses its abilities. Oko would also try to make a creature a 3/3 in 613.4b, so you would apply timestamps. It would depend on when the effects happened.

Oko can make 3/3s under humility for the same reason mishra's factory activated with humilty out is a 2/2. Both abilities are setting power and toughness, so what matters is time stamps. If humility is out and I +1 oko, the result is a 3/3 because the timestamp of that ability is later.

Oko is already winning most creature fights at a lower mana cost. Maybe Humility adds some percentage to that, but it is also a 4 mana card that isn't super impactful against several archetypes. I just don't see it being worth the deck slot.

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