@desolutionist said in [JMP] Allosaurus Shepherd:

Just to play devils advocate, elves gets wrecked by Pyroclasm more so than Force of Will.

I cannot remember the last time I saw pyroclasm in a list, and it is sorcery speed and I think this enables you to beat that.

I'm actually trying to figure out what the most broken things this would enable right now and having trouble limiting it to one configuration.

• Glimpse of nature / Heritage druid / Nettle sentinel would be totally uncounterable and churn through your deck sometimes completely by turn 2. Unsure if the deck likes Wirewood Symbiote or Quirion Ranger better to be honest, or if it needs either.
• Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx and Gaeas cradle on turn 2 can produce stupid mana, to the point where it might even be worth running fastbond like effects. Explore may even be better because it cantrips.
• Natural order into Craterhoof could be GG
• Make tons of mana, kraveks torch or Shaman of the pack for game, maybe even splash summoners pact

Elves gets absolutely shredded by Walking Ballista, and also loses to other decks just being faster / more disruptive. Elf ball is like a turn 3 or later deck that gets pushed even further in the face of disruption/bad draws.

I think the card is way more interesting if there is an application outside of Elves.

@vaughnbros said in [JMP] Allosaurus Shepherd:

Elves gets absolutely shredded by Walking Ballista, and also loses to other decks just being faster / more disruptive. Elf ball is like a turn 3 or later deck that gets pushed even further in the face of disruption/bad draws.

I think the card is way more interesting if there is an application outside of Elves.

I'm unclear if that paradigm holds up. If elves gets a reasonable hand and start on the play, shops basically has to resolve the ballista turn one to kill any enabler or elves could snowball in one turn. Even without Glimpse it is not unreasonable for an elf list to put down 2 lords and be out of range.

Yes it's a good tool but since green is already Shops natural predator I think they are very well positioned after sideboarding as well to just ruin that decks day.

@protoaddict

Here is a legacy Elves deck:
https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=25543&d=386251&f=LE

The deck doesn’t play Lords... You’d have to significantly alter the list, making your combo element slower and/or worse, to support that. Deck probably already needs to find room for Ouphe and Blue power to be remotely Vintage playable.

I do not think I would base my build for vintage on a 3 month old Lurris meta 4th place deck that also did not have the above card.

@protoaddict

Would you care to show me what elves deck you are talking about then? Because this has been roughly what Legacy Elves has looked like for some time. I can't recall a time when they ran a multitude of Lords, at most they play like 1 or 2 to GSZ for.

Legacy elves doesn't play force of vigor or ouphe main decked because they don't answer half the meta... Apples and Oranges.

Likewise the banned cards in legacy can make elves even more insane here:
Fastbond
Skullclamp
Lotus
Emerald

I don't think a vintage elf deck would look identical to a legacy elf deck.

@tittliewinks22 said in [JMP] Allosaurus Shepherd:

I don't think a vintage elf deck would look identical to a legacy elf deck.

I mean, no deck is going to look the same now that it has an uncounterable threat that makes your deck uncounterable. It would be silly to think the ideal build is just take a legacy deck and put 4 of these in.

Years back I played an elf list in Modern that could turn 2 with some luck and very consistently put the deck into play on turn 3. Obviously a lot of the cards were meta calls for that format but the core of is still there. What does exist now that didn't exist then however is a 2 mana elf lord (elvish Clan caller), a 2 mana null rod creature that cannot be countered, a pitchable double shatter, and much more.

The paradigm has shifted though, In vintage I think your ideal opener is not necessarily going to be a mana elf like it is in the other formats, it will be this guy and fast mana rock for another thing and you are going to hope to go off with Glimpse and druid turn 2. It needs some crafting and I am waiting to see what else this set may be hiding, but I think this elf is a huge deal.

@tittliewinks22
There are a lot of other deck ideas that use aggro control strategies than just BUG.

Dosen't deafining silence prevent you from getting back vengevine?

No it won't. Deafening is actually very strong in Survival since all you are doing is casting 2 creature spells.

Another home would be 5C Humans, the controlling value versions or the Knight Humans which usually goes for prison and sticks with GWx colorwise.

It does not have to be all about combo, but I can see it being very good in a combo deck as well.

Bah, ots early, thought it was rule of law for a sec.

@guli it isn't a human though

@BlindTherapy Why would it need to be human? No need for cavern, it's already uncounterable. And it makes FoV, KotR, Teeg, GSZ, Dr. Shaman, Ouphe, etc etc all uncounterable as well. In the right list, you could "almost" get away with zero caverns, letting you run more fetches, wastelands, and a more stable 4-5c list utilizing duals/fetches and Dr. Shamans/Noble Heirarchs.

@serracollector it doesn't need cavern to be uncounterable, but if you are playing 5c humans your manabase has caverns and unclaimed territory that either are set to elf/shaman or set to human. setting one on elf to cast this and having that land function as a colorless source for the rest of the game is a big cost; to the best of my knowledge humans typically play 8 cavern/territory, power, and mana confluence as its initial mana sources, the only non-human creatures being spirit guides or revokers, the latter castable off off-type caverns. playing a fetch/dual/DRS manabase is certainly a good way to play magic but it's going to be a very different deck than 4/5C humans, which is the context in which i replied.

@blindtherapy Only UWG humans or 4-color humans uses 8 cavern/territory. Almost all GW versions run 4 caverns and savannah/fetches/plains/forest to get the most out of knight of the reliquary (to grab bog, tabernacle, strip, karakas, etc).

The Value 5C Humans do not run rainbow manabase, that is more a modern format thing. You run highlander dual mana base with plenty of fetchlands. Deathrite is also extremely important (i know it is a non human but my experience tells me Noble is worse at the moment).

I don’t think this card does enough in hatebears. Getting Force of Will’ed is not a big issue for those decks. Getting crushed by your opponents busted draws while you play fair is. This does nothing to slow your opponent, or get you back into the game when you fall behind. If there’s no green combo worth playing in Vintage then this card is a long shot to be playable.

@vaughnbros I think being able to uncounterably cast ouphe is a good stop vs busted. You also get to uncounterably resolve sylvan for CA, channel or Eureka for Emrakul (if you want to be super fun), and other line with good G or GW bears (gaddock, militant, etc.) The main problem is that green doesn't have that many things that are broken on par with the other 4 colors. It's just a notch below red on "broken cards to play," and leagues behind blue.