[Podcast] SMIP Podcast # 53: Mid-May Vintage Metagame Update



  • @varal awesome.... now THAT is a rule. Wizards should print an actual card with a probability chart... 1U... Mathematical Tutor?



  • I find nothing unethical about engaging with a twitch chat about plays or strategy. That's the counterbalance to the EXTREME disadvantage a streamer gets by having their hand/strategy completely open for any opponent to look at.



  • MTGO ethics has always interested me. Interestingly, back in the day, the TOS had a clause about not using outside help to play. Anyone know if its still there? When streaming first took off, I noticed some people doing it and asked. The general response from the streamers was, "Yeah I talk about plays and ask chat what they think but my decisions are my own and I won't change lines just cuz LSV is in my chat telling me I'm wrong."

    Even more interesting, at one point a streamer (maybe Kenji?) told me WotC had actually contacted him to "verify that his decisions were his own and that nothing unfair was going on." I have no idea how true it is or if WotC ever has/still does care, but at the outset, it was something that was curtailed by the rules of MTGO, even if it wasn't enforceable at all. Has anyone ever been banned from MTGO for getting outside help?

    All in all, I fully agree with the * by MTGO players' skill. Its not that MTGO is a worse way to play Magic, it just tests different things; things that are not tested by our long-held, historical understanding of 'sitting down to play a game of Magic.'


  • TMD Supporter

    @ajfirecracker said:

    @smmenen You obliterated the meaning of the word "unfairness" in using it to refer to both defects in the thing being tested by a process (ex: skill in Magic, due to inexperience for example) as well as defects in the testing process (ex: one player has a room full of professional players giving them advice)

    It's correct and wise to say that a court where you can't face your accuser is unfair

    It's incorrect and foolish to say that a court where overwhelming evidence of your guilt is presented is also unfair

    Your post suggests that fairness is a black/white or objective idea, when it fact, it has subjective elements. Think about trades - some trades people think are fair, and others inequitable.

    Is it unfair that some people have larger collections or more money for cards to enjoy a strategic advantage over their opponents? Probably. Is it unethical? No.

    Is it unfair that some basketball players have height advantages? Possibly. But is it unethical? Definitely not.

    Even ethics, a branch of philosophy, depends upon premises and values, which people disagree on (see, for example, how Rawls constructs starting principles in Justice as Fairness).

    I don't pretend to have an answer here, but I felt my role in the podcast was to complicate the issue a bit by introducing elements that could be seen as unfair from some perspectives.

    I think Boxian gets it right or close to right when he says that twitch has the capacity to exacerbate existing unfairnesses, but I don't necessarily see that as unethical.

    I think we were talking about ethics in the podcast, and you are talking about fairness.
    Let's not confuse fairness with ethics.

    I agree that enforceability is a concern, but since a perfectly enforceable rule has never been created in the history of humanity,

    Yeah - but rules that inherently unenforceable are especially problematic because they foster disrespect for other rules. If people feel they can violate one rule with impunity, then it undermines a culture of rule following. See Wall Street.



  • What a bait-and-switch... you use the word "unfairness" over and over and then when I say you were being overbroad and destroying important distinctions I've somehow improperly identified the topic


  • TMD Supporter

    Well, Kevin framed the issue in terms of ethics, IIRC, but I spoke at times about fairness, which is a different but related issue. In either case, my point is that neither are black and white. They depend upon starting premises or values. You spoke in terms of one being "correct" or "incorrect."



  • @Smmenen Semantics aside, are you simply content to just shrug and say that it's all relative? Do you have an opinion with a practical application? (I understand the role of broadening discussion as per the pod cast... I really am asking if you have a feeling about this.)


  • TMD Supporter

    @Topical_Island said:

    @Smmenen Semantics aside, are you simply content to just shrug and say that it's all relative? Do you have an opinion with a practical application? (I understand the role of broadening discussion as per the pod cast... I really am asking if you have a feeling about this.)

    I feel like there may be valid ethical issues here, but that this is a huge can of worms, and to resolve it requires careful consideration of the merits on all sides. In short, I don't have a strong opinion at all.

    I am, however, enjoying the discussion here.



  • I gave a black-and-white example to illustrate my point, obviously you can make finer distinctions in areas where it's not as clear



  • @Smmenen I can honestly say that I enjoy the way you seem to enjoy these discussions. (My brain, which looks for etymological relationships all day long at work, has begun to process a perceived link between Smmenen and Semantic... also Probasco and Proboscis is happening.)


  • TMD Supporter

    Personally I have never ghosted a stream or sought outside assistance for a match on MTGO.
    I would rather lose with dignity than win by exploiting an unfair advantage

    I don't think it's right to assume that someone who primarily plays magic online is not as skilled as a paper player simply due to the way they experience the game.



  • @Islandswamp said:

    I don't think it's right to assume that someone who primarily plays magic online is not as skilled as a paper player simply due to the way they experience the game.

    I do not think anyone has said this. The point made originally, the way I saw it, is that we have a concept of a set of skills that allows one to succeed at paper magic. We have spent over 20 years dicussing, praising, and learning these skills, and when we display them, somone sees that and says, "Now she/he is playing some good magic!"

    MtGO tests some of the same skills, and some very different skills. Neither type of player is worse, but they are honing a different skillset so it isn't right to say that a good MTGO player has the same skills as a good paper tournament player, or vice versa. Though, some people value one skillset more than the other.



  • There was a time I thought it curious that folks would live stream MODO tournaments while actively participating in a Chat where others were weighing in on decisions mid-match...sort of airing yourselves out to be accused of cheating, in a way. Despite the fact that your opponent could easily be "ghosting" you, if your opponent doesn't recognize your MODO handle, how would they ever find your stream. If someone was caught with an earpiece in a paper event being given lines of play I would suspect there would be pretty serious consequences to that. There is, of course a middle ground...players delay stream their events, talk about all the decision making they want (no live chats) and then post on twitch later.

    That being said, there is value to the community in being able to watch some of the top tier players in the format play the game, explain their decision making, card choices ect...I have personally learned a good deal about proper timing, sequencing, when to play certain cards, when to sit back..all great stuff.



  • @Islandswamp I agree with that. I do think that MTGO is easier to play though, mainly because all the housekeeping activities are done for you and you don't have to do as much mental upkeep as you do in paper.


  • TMD Supporter

    What are the implied ethics of hearthstone or online poker?

    Wizards obviously loves the streaming attention, but will eventually force them to take a side.



  • @joshuabrooks Ug... Poker is tough I think. Taking money from people you know can't really afford it... woof. To say nothing of the fact that if you lose over time you basically just have a gambling problem.



  • meh, it's just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic of life.



  • I think the question is clear-cut: do we want an MTGO match to be an individual contest? Or a contest between two arbitrary teams?

    If the former, then asking pros and Vintage world champions on chat to play the game for you is clearly cheating.

    If the latter, so be it; there is nothing unfair or unethical about this decision provided that it is clearly communicated to all players that there is no longer any expectation of MTGO being an individual contest. And I, personally, will want nothing to do with such a game.


  • TMD Supporter

    @evouga said:

    I think the question is clear-cut: do we want an MTGO match to be an individual contest? Or a contest between two arbitrary teams?

    If the former, then asking pros and Vintage world champions on chat to play the game for you is clearly cheating.

    If the latter, so be it; there is nothing unfair or unethical about this decision provided that it is clearly communicated to all players that there is no longer any expectation of MTGO being an individual contest. And I, personally, will want nothing to do with such a game.

    I think Kevin's view is that multiple players playing on a single account of MTGO (or working together) against a common opponent is unethical. Lots of people do that tho.

    One question is: how would you clearly communicate that to your opponent? Would you have to tell them before each match? Or, what if people wouldnt play if they do? How do you tell all MTGO opponents before an event?


  • TMD Supporter

    @Smmenen said:

    @evouga said:

    I think the question is clear-cut: do we want an MTGO match to be an individual contest? Or a contest between two arbitrary teams?

    If the former, then asking pros and Vintage world champions on chat to play the game for you is clearly cheating.

    If the latter, so be it; there is nothing unfair or unethical about this decision provided that it is clearly communicated to all players that there is no longer any expectation of MTGO being an individual contest. And I, personally, will want nothing to do with such a game.

    I think Kevin's view is that multiple players playing on a single account of MTGO (or working together) against a common opponent is unethical. Lots of people do that tho.

    One question is: how would you clearly communicate that to your opponent? Would you have to tell them before each match? Or, what if people wouldnt play if they do? How do you tell all MTGO opponents before an event?

    Plus let's remember these are magic players. Even if they had an icon you could switch on to tell people you were "teaming," people would use that as a sole excuse for why they lost.

    I agree this is unenforceable.
    In the casual playrooms it is fine, but I feel bad for people that spend money to lose to a team.

    The community needs to frown upon this, at least in non-disclosed competitive play. Even if you don't use the suggestions of your helpers, it is still an obvious aid to have multiple lines of play being discussed

    Edit: still unsure how I feel about this right now.


 

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