[IKO] Lurrus of the Dream-Den
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This seems pretty bad in a Hatebears deck (and in general). Without even taking the restraints it puts on your deckbuilding options into consideration, it' just a 3/2 for 3 that let's you cast one extra card each turn (if that card is already in your graveyard). Dark Confidant seems infinitely better.
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@griselbrother DC doesn't start as the 8th card in your opening hand every game though.
Iam however also skeptical from a DPS perspective since it won't let you play Necro, Bargain or Citadel -
I'm def going to play around with it in a standstill variant, though I am entirely unsure if it makes more sense to add white or black to the deck. There were very few permanents over 3 in that list to start with, the biggest hit is losing crucible.
It also notably has interaction with LED as early as turn 1, which may in turn make it a very solid breach enabler.
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@protoaddict said in [IKO] Lurrus of the Dream-Den:
I'm def going to play around with it in a standstill variant, though I am entirely unsure if it makes more sense to add white or black to the deck. There were very few permanents over 3 in that list to start with, the biggest hit is losing crucible.
It also notably has interaction with LED as early as turn 1, which may in turn make it a very solid breach enabler.
Why Standstill? Of all decks, Landstill benefits the most from not casting spells - and when they do, they want to play counters. What permanents do Landstill even play besides Standstill and moxen? I mean in your above example, you get this card into play and then it doesn't do anything but attack for 3 because your very own Standstill prevents it's ability from being useful.
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@griselbrother said in [IKO] Lurrus of the Dream-Den:
@protoaddict said in [IKO] Lurrus of the Dream-Den:
I'm def going to play around with it in a standstill variant, though I am entirely unsure if it makes more sense to add white or black to the deck. There were very few permanents over 3 in that list to start with, the biggest hit is losing crucible.
It also notably has interaction with LED as early as turn 1, which may in turn make it a very solid breach enabler.
Why Standstill? Of all decks, Landstill benefits the most from not casting spells - and when they do, they want to play counters. What permanents do Landstill even play besides Standstill and moxen? I mean in your above example, you get this card into play and then it doesn't do anything but attack for 3 because your very own Standstill prevents it's ability from being useful.
Well, if my opening turn is putting a 3/2 lifelink into play along with a standstill, a land, and maybe a mox, and maybe even a lotus, it puts faster pressure on my opponent than the deck normally could muster and all but ensures my opponent cannot sit around and wait. Think of it as a soft combo where you start with an 8 card starting hand and 1 is a combo piece every time.
In the best case scenario, this guy functions as a control finisher that does not cost you a card in your deck, gives you +1 hand size, always starts in your hand, cannot be thoughtseized away away, and cannot be drawn by accident when you are trying to draw into countermagic. That's a lot for a card to provide.
And the deck really need not play many more permanents than landstill and lotus because those are the ones you want to recycle most of the time, but breach is an option, most of the grave hate like Nihli spellbomb can be put back every turn once this guy sticks.
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I personally thought of Goblin Welder, Goblin Engineer, and the painter grindstone combos. It would probably need to be a RWB deck and run cardslike Ethersworn Cannonist and Duress efx. But this card would be most beneficial in a list like that imo.
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@protoaddict I think you'd have to have lotus/landstill in hand for that to work. You could cast lotus, cast Lurrus, replay lotus, cast landstill. But outside of opening with lotus, I don't see the real benefit. Are you running it as one of your SB slots (all 15 seem precious to me) just on the off chance you open with lotus and landstill in your opener? It won't work with LED as you can only get back one permanent a turn (either LED or Standstill), and then you've discarded all your countermagic anyway, which seems godawful.
In theory, being able to repeatedly recast standstill is nice, but those and lotus are really the only 5 permanents in your deck you can recast. And if they break your standstill, it's to attempt to kill Lurrus, which means you aren't getting the ability anymore. It just seems like you are dedicating one SB slot and splashing a color for the Chrismasland scenario. It's a fine thing when it happens, but I'd rather that extra hurkyll's/trickbind/dredge hate piece in that 15th slot of the SB.
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I hate this mechanic btw. For some reason I hope that all cards with this mechanic get banned outside of EDH variants.
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@aelien Why is that? I find pre-game mechanics to be almost entirely unexplored. I think Vintage NEEDS more things like this to level the playing field actually. I love that this card says cmc 2 or less. This rules out Oko and Dack and Teferi from being included in a deck. I LOOOVE that restriction.
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I don't like that it takes a SB slot. If they would have said "Command Zone" was a legal zone in Vintage, I'd be okay with it a bit more (without actually having anything but these companions being commanders). I don't like these overall and don't like the idea of having something in hand every opener no matter what. I also dislike when the SB becomes an extension of your deck in the main. I also run Karn/lattice...and I hate it...but it's too good not to do. I don't like the direction of decks becoming 75 cards in G1.
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@stormanimagus said in [IKO] Lurrus of the Dream-Den:
@aelien Why is that? I find pre-game mechanics to be almost entirely unexplored. I think Vintage NEEDS more things like this to level the playing field actually. I love that this card says cmc 2 or less. This rules out Oko and Dack and Teferi from being included in a deck. I LOOOVE that restriction.
This will level the playing field when they make a companion that has vintage+ level power that has a deck building requirement that you cannot have 0 mana artifacts in your deck.
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@protoaddict the remaining color pairs are RW and UW. while it is entirely possible that the UW one ends up being broken because Blue, i think "you don't get to play artifacts in the same deck as this"(they are unlikely to print something specifically against moxen) would have been the RG one.
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@blindtherapy You know the UW one is going to be something stupid like:
1{U/W}{U/W}
"You can't play enchantments that cost 1 or less in your starting deck"
When you cast a spell, you win the game
Indestructible, can't be countered
50/50...because that's how blue rolls in Vintage.
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I almost don't think you can do it with a creature or without breaking standard. It would have to be something so narrowly tailored to the format that they were obviously building it just to foster a new archetype.
G
Your starting deck cannot contain any artifacts that cost 1 or less
Hexproof, flying
Null rod/Grafdiggers cage
1/1 -
@protoaddict hell, I'd play that in dredge
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I have been toying around with the idea of using Living Wish to get around the restriction of playing Lurrus in a normal-ish xerox shell. My first look (below) has been a four-color build eschewing red.
Lurrus's Living Wish
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Lotus Petal
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade4 Living Wish
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
1 Time Walk1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
1 Force of Negation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gush
1 Mental Misstep
1 Veil of Summer
1 Force of Vigor
2 Swords to Plowshares2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Strip MineSB
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Lurrus of the Dream Den
1 Managorger Hydra
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 WastelandThe thought process that led me here was that Lurrus looping things for value was threatening enough as its own engine and disrupting it was taxing on the amount of removal that I have been seeing recently. Living Wish represented a way to pull a Mentor in from the sideboard after forcing you opponent to spend resources fighting the Lurrus.
The secondary benefit to me was a better and possibly even good (I have only seen the matchups a few times) plan vrs. Dredge and Hollowvine in game one with the ability to find a Tabernacle and possibly lock them out. I was successful with this in my testing so far which seems promising.
The option to find and put a non-blue threat into play has also been useful at navigating Pyroblast matchups but I have struggled with counter wars as a result and don't have the raw card advantage and threat density of a normal BUG list to contend with that issue. You either play Wish into green threat and then you countermagic gets overwhelmed by theirs or you burn all of your blue cards fighting early then don't have anything to power up a mentor/hydra. I won all the games where I had a turn one Deathrite Shaman and usually struggled otherwise.
Things I am trying to figure out still: do I want the Mox Ruby and Lotus Petal or would I prefer some greater # of Baubles in those slots? Is the fourth Deathrite better in the main or board to be fetched? How many threats do I need/want in the main? Should I be trying to find space for Mystic Remora as it pairs very well with Lurrus? How do I contend with the Shops MU? I am not killing fast enough to be totally happy with Hurkyl's nor can I play more durable hate like Energy Flux. I have not been unhappy with the Wish board configuration so far, but always happy to hear opinions.
All in all I have had enough success to suggest trying something in this vein out as a means to circumvent the drawback of a powerful card.
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@nofuture said in [IKO] Lurrus of the Dream-Den:
I have been toying around with the idea of using Living Wish to get around the restriction of playing Lurrus in a normal-ish xerox shell. My first look (below) has been a four-color build eschewing red.
Lurrus's Living Wish
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
2 Mishra's Bauble
1 Lotus Petal
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Black Lotus3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade4 Living Wish
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
1 Time Walk1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
1 Force of Negation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Gush
1 Mental Misstep
1 Veil of Summer
1 Force of Vigor
2 Swords to Plowshares2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Strip MineSB
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Lurrus of the Dream Den
1 Managorger Hydra
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 WastelandThe thought process that led me here was that Lurrus looping things for value was threatening enough as its own engine and disrupting it was taxing on the amount of removal that I have been seeing recently. Living Wish represented a way to pull a Mentor in from the sideboard after forcing you opponent to spend resources fighting the Lurrus.
The secondary benefit to me was a better and possibly even good (I have only seen the matchups a few times) plan vrs. Dredge and Hollowvine in game one with the ability to find a Tabernacle and possibly lock them out. I was successful with this in my testing so far which seems promising.
The option to find and put a non-blue threat into play has also been useful at navigating Pyroblast matchups but I have struggled with counter wars as a result and don't have the raw card advantage and threat density of a normal BUG list to contend with that issue. You either play Wish into green threat and then you countermagic gets overwhelmed by theirs or you burn all of your blue cards fighting early then don't have anything to power up a mentor/hydra. I won all the games where I had a turn one Deathrite Shaman and usually struggled otherwise.
Things I am trying to figure out still: do I want the Mox Ruby and Lotus Petal or would I prefer some greater # of Baubles in those slots? Is the fourth Deathrite better in the main or board to be fetched? How many threats do I need/want in the main? Should I be trying to find space for Mystic Remora as it pairs very well with Lurrus? How do I contend with the Shops MU? I am not killing fast enough to be totally happy with Hurkyl's nor can I play more durable hate like Energy Flux. I have not been unhappy with the Wish board configuration so far, but always happy to hear opinions.
All in all I have had enough success to suggest trying something in this vein out as a means to circumvent the drawback of a powerful card.
Interesting take for sure! Cool idea utilizing Living Wish. However, the question still remaining to be answered is whether it's really worth it to play suboptimal cards like Mishra's Bauble (and Living Wish) in exhange for getting an occasional free 3/2?
Don't get me wrong, I do like the innovation, but I'm just not convinced that Lurrus is actually good enough to warrant replacing Narset, Teferi, Dack and Mentor, Leovold etc. (although with your approach you still have access to those) with it.
As for the Shops matchup, I would strongly consider Serenity. It can be clunky and not good enough on it's own, but it combos so well with Lurrus that it would be the first anti-Shops-plan I would try out if I were to play around with Lurrus.
You could also try something like Qasali Pridemage. It's not very strong on it's own against modern Shops decks but it also combos well with Lurrus and is Living Wishable. -
@griselbrother I think you not only DON'T lose mentor and leovold, but you get 4x demonic tutors to grab them. They always stay in the SB so Lurrus is always on.
You lose a miser's narset and other 3cmc walkers, but Lurrus is essentially a walker here that recurs creatures/baubles.
Serenity is an underrated beauty.
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After a day or so of tinkering with the deck I think that @Griselbrother was correct about the dubious value of Lurrus + Bauble as an engine. They were as a whole slightly less powerful than just playing some of the more standard cards (Dack, 3feri, narscet etc.) however that engine + mystic remora has thus far been more than enough to justify losing those cards.
This is the new list I am working with:
Lurrus's Living Wish1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
3 Mishra's Bauble
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Black Lotus3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Tarmogoyf
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade3 Mystic Remora
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Dig Through Time
1 Force of Negation
1 Gush
1 Mental Misstep
1 Force of Vigor
2 Swords to Plowshares2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Strip Mine4 Living Wish
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Preordain
1 Time WalkSideboard
1 Monastery Mentor
1 Lurrus of the Dream Den
1 Managorger Hydra
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Wasteland
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 SerenityMy experience with this iteration has boiled down to the following you are looking for a hand that on turn 1 plays Deathrite, Remora, or Lavinia (added a 2nd one) and should feel confident in finding one of those things or a truly broken 'vintage' hand. This primary plans means often you are casting Living Wish in either a position where you are up a ton of cards and it locks in a winning position or where both you and your opponent are down to no resources and you get to slam a high value threat going into a topdeck war.
I initially envisioned this deck as a sort of having your cake and eating it too situation (mentor or hydra powered up by the lurrus engine) but the reality is its more like having your cake and then a sandwich for later in that you want to fully commit to plan a. with the confidence you will find a 4 of card to pull the right piece in if that fails.
Other changes are adding two Serenitys for the shops matchups, The Ramunap got cut because it was too ambitious a plan and I added a basic plains to bring in as a 61st card in Xerox mirrors. The Yixlid and Kataki have been okay but not great I can even see one of them becoming a Lavinia who has been incredible. Spellbomb and the singleton maindeck goyf have both been powerful and worth keeping.
I'd love to hear thoughts if anyone else has picked up the deck or just has ideas after reading all of this. I also imagine there is a world where you drop the black cards and the Leovold and try either straight Bant or try adding red with a W6 package + more wasteland effects.
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Couldn't the Baubles be Standstills and you run Ramunap and maybe a man-land or 2 in your board? Even getting a Dr. shaman in under a standstill, then pop it draw 3, Companion, replay Standstill is a good setup, and not too uncommon? Also ups your blue count. Just a thought.
