New Graveyard Approaches with Hogaak in Vintage - Post Aug-2019 B/R Announcement

chikararyuu

I was reading the survival thread, and it has started to turn into a series of graveyard approaches that are no longer survival related.

That said, this got me thinking recent banning in other formats and whether they could now be ported over from Modern/Legacy into Vintage with some modicum of success.

One particular decklist to start off this new discussion is possible porting the Hogaak Bridgevine combo (from Modern) or Hogaak (from Legacy) that used to dominate the Modern format and bring it into vintage.

With the restriction of mental misstep, I suspect that this might be possible.

To begin the discussion, I want to use the following lists to start from Legacy and Modern respectively:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=22833&d=356108&f=LE

20 LANDS
3 Badlands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs

20 CREATURES
4 Bloodghast
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Stitcher's Supplier

12 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Entomb
4 Faithless Looting

8 OTHER SPELLS
4 Altar of Dementia
4 Bridge from Below

<SIDEBOARD>
1 Abrade
1 Cryptbreaker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Goblin Bombardment
2 Rotting Regisaur
1 Shenanigans
3 Thoughtseize
4 Wear / Tear

Hogaak Bridgevine

http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/130467

Creatures (27)
3 Bloodghast
4 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Stitcher's Supplier
4 Vengevine
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis

Lands (19)
1 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Marsh Flats
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Verdant Catacombs

Spells (14)
4 Altar of Dementia
4 Bridge from Below
1 Lightning Axe
1 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting

<Sideboard>
2 Pithing Needle
1 Silent Gravestone
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Lightning Axe
4 Nature's Claim
1 Shenanigans
2 Thoughtseize

Knowing how vast the vintage pool of cards, there are some obvious upgrades that we could consider (shocks into dual lands, faithless looting in bazaar of Baghdad, utilizing Cabal Therapy to trigger Zombies from Bridge, etc).

Is this legitimate enough evidence to explore?
Please feel free to express your thoughts and/or deck critiques/criticisms.

wfain

@chikararyuu
I think you could go very land light and use land grant to find bayous, then play crop rotation to find Bazaar. Probably Rootwala and Hollow One are too good not to use?

chikararyuu

I never considered Land Grant because I find myself wondering if the cost of revealing that information and having them counter it is worth it. That's definitely an exploratory idea.

I do recall from years past about seeing Land Grant in the Grow era.

It's worth a try. If we are looking at still using the Basking Rootwalla and Hollow One, then how would the manabase look?

Here is what I am envisioning to start:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

4 Bayou
1 Forest
4-6 Fetchlands
??? Additional Lands

4 Land Grant
4 Crop Rotation

Non-mana producing lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

Here is my original thought process for comparison:

With the use of stitcher's supplies, carrion feeder, etc, I think having access to black/green mana to 'cast' the gravecrawler is how we should consider recurring the vengevines as well as dig for answers (similar to how dredge uses it in the post-sideboard games).

Having access to mana gives us to several pieces of universal removal: abrupt decay, assassin's trophy, maelstrom pulse, beast within, thoughtseize, cabal therapy, duress and possibly more?

In comparison to pitch dredge, I think the deck can go on the offense and have a solid removal plan from the get-go. If we dig on this rabbit hole a bit further, we'll have access to regrowth effects as well.

Just a thought here: Isn’t Hermit Druid probably better than Sticher Supplier?

chikararyuu

@desolutionist

That would definitely mill yourself completely out!

But what would your endgame position look after that?
I'm not too familiar with Hermit combo.

If we consider incremental growth, then Stitcher might be the method still since you can use it to recur Gravecrawler (triggering Vengevine) as well as continue more incremental mill with the use of Cabal Therapy/Carrion Feeder (which cascades into trigger Bridge from Below).

I do wonder if the Altar of Dementia Combo is 'too cute' and that we should just go with an aggressive beatdown plan with main deck answers.

It wouldn’t mill yourself out: it only goes to the next basic. So you could play 2-3 basic and mill 20 cards rather than just 3 with supplier. You would have to wait a turn before you get the cards though.

chikararyuu

@desolutionist

Part of me leaves that deck too invested and to be blown out by ravenous trap, but it's definitely something to consider.

Please provide a deck outline for discussion.

Serracollector

If you went the Hermit Druid route, you could Mill yourself out, get Anger in the grave, play a Badlands to trigger 4 Ghasts, maybe make some tokens off Bridge from Below/Cabal Therapies, and get 4 Hasty Hogaaak/Vengevine in play swing for......48 damage on turn 2? Weak to leyline obviously, but a high probability.

@serracollector

Maybe play 1 basic Mountain to get with Hermit?

Also 4x Hermit, 4x Hogaak is nearing Force of Vigor territory. Perhaps Veil of Summer for against Rav Trap. Besides the mentioned graveyard cards you could otherwise play “normal” Jund cards like Ouphe or DRS.

chikararyuu

This sounds great! Can we start coming up with a rough draft?

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vaughnbros

I’ve tested it quite a bit with Hermit Druid. Actually ending the game can be tricky at times without killing your self, but it felt more viable as a complement to VV than Survival has felt to me. Hermit Druid can realistically end the game on turn 2 and that’s a game changer.

Oestrus

I love everything happening here.

John Cox

Are Entomb and Reanimate playable now?

chikararyuu

I started scouring the internet and found several articles involving Hermit Druid.

I have nothing substantial just yet to conjure a draft, but it might help continue to get the ball rolling.

https://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-rogue-hermit-the-fastest-deck-in-vintage/

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/vintage-101-zombies-hermits-and-eldrazi

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27529_Killing-On-Turn-2.html

chikararyuu

I saw a list posted on Facebook that utilizes Creeping Chill in tandem with Hermit Druid.

Think this is also a solid add-on to this tentative list?

Serracollector

I have a list I was goldfishing with. It's in extreme glass cannon phase, but has the general shell to work whatever you all decide to put in it, the combo is very straight forward, activate hermit, tap dudes and win:

// 60 Maindeck
// 8 Artifact
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal

// 22 Creature
4 Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis
4 Bloodghast
1 Anger
4 Narcomoeba
4 Hermit Druid
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Dryad Arbor

// 4 Enchantment
4 Bridge from Below

// 3 Instant
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

// 7 Land
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Mountain

// 16 Sorcery
1 Time Walk
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Land Grant

Other Options:
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Balustrade Spy
Pact of Negation
Summoners Pact

With the new mulligan rule its not hard to hit a hermit, a gsz, or a Summoners Pact, so not sure if wheel effects, or even Ancestral is worth it, Time Walk sure for the random 4 mana Hermit, Walk turn. Lots of different defensive measures, such as Grid, Duress/Thoughtseize, Mental Misstep, or Pact, I just went for a base list without those, so choose as you wish. It's fun.

Zieby

What makes the Hogaak approach better then a certain Dread Return package if we go with Hermid Druid, then it might be better to revert back to the dread return plan. Here are some examples I found.

Targets a player, but hard to disrupt:
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Murderous Redcap
1x The Mimeoplasm

or

Doesn't target a player but can be disrupted:
1x Laboratory Maniac
1x Angel of Glory's Rise
1x Azami, Lady of Scrolls

The support is a minimum of
3x Narcomoeba
2x Bridge from Below
1x Dread Return

With 4x Cabal Therapy to generate tokens and remove the hate from target p[layers hand

This way you have way more room for protection and disruption and card selection.
But then again, this has been tried in the past and was not successful due to the dependency on Hermid Druid and the fact he can't be activated the moment he comes into play.

Just my 2 cents.

Greetz Arjan a.k.a. Zieby

vaughnbros

Hogaak into VV is uncounterable and doesn’t actually need Therapy, Dread Return, or Bridge from Below. If you are going full glass cannon this value is lost though.

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