@vaughnbros the biggest downside to courser is it’s a total blowout when opponent has force of vigor. Just a reminder more than anything, I’ve seen several people forget he’s an enchantment and it goes poorly lol.
Biggest thing to beating storm is a sphere based board. Your best chance is landing sphere then rod and keeping them off of lands as much as possible. Ritual storm is always lands’ worst matchup (outside of something off the wall like 8 moon). 4 sphere and trinisphere in the board and chalice gives you a decent shot against decks like DPS or at least buys you time. Often even a turn one lage on its own can be too slow.
I also like to diversify by splashing white for Thalia so if they keep hurkyls it’s not a total blowout. This is often not that hard since you already have multiple riftstone and karakas and Mox Diamond.
On the PO side of things I really like to splash black for Chains which buys a lot of time against them and has some effect on DPS and also a big impact against xerox.
Clearly none of these are an auto win but lands revolves around gaining incremental advantage and tightening the prison around them a lot of the time more than just jamming lage as fast as possible.
The deck can also easily support 4-5 colors which I’ve been playing for a long time. So branching out from the main base isn’t that bad.
Just some thoughts.
wiley last edited by wiley
Issue is that outside of Waste and Ouphe it really doesn’t have much interaction. Storm decks probably crush it.
Outside of adding 4-6 sphere effects I'm not sure that is solvable, and even then they are planning to win through that against shops. GW gives Teeg, but how likely is it that they can storm out without bounce/kill?
You could try BG with discard, and maybe a backup hogaak plan.
Protoaddict last edited by
I think I would be curious to see where depths combo goes, and if it is really the right build. I have always hated giving my opponent a turn to draw an answer, and marit lage still cannot beat infinite life.
Right now I'm trying to put together a BUG control list with it and I still really like having a deck filled with pitch answers and broken cards that just happens to have an "ops I win" switch every so often.
I'm really happy that there seems to be multiple builds for this though, it does make me feel like this was a good card to unrestrict.
These decks need [[Veil of Summer]]
I wouldn’t be too concerned about removal, or counterspells due to the sheer number of value cards in a lands shell. The reason to play the deck is this resilience to other control, and ultimately thus will need to be good against BUG.
Veil of Summer is potentially an interesting anti storm option that is playable against blue. On top of, or in addition to some more devoted hate. Don’t think Spheres seem right to me. The deck can’t really reliably play them turn 1.
@vaughnbros the vintage version can much more easily run ancient tomb and it has a lot more fast mana and can easily play sphere turn one. Sphere has always been one of my best board cards in several matchups from xerox to all in combo. It’s one of the best ways to contain the unfair decks in the early games so that your toolbox of lands has a chance to get going and take over
Also post board removal is very important for the deck. I’m not sure why this wouldn’t be a factor you’d consider even given all the different lands.
Adding Ancient Tomb + Sphere as a whole package warps the deck to much different than I have mine set up. It’s possible that is better, but seems like it would cut into the decks’ consistency quite a bit and push it to be pretty different from the legacy lists.
Removal is important for the lands deck to play... I just don’t think it’s that much of a worry of opponents playing it against you. True “Blow out by Force of Vigor” is going to be few and far between.
@vaughnbros understood. I misunderstood your first removal comment. The biggest blowouts are usually the all in on lage getting hit by swords then your blue opponent buries you with Card advantage.
In the weeks to come it may also be pertinent to be weary of surgical which can be a blowout and may see an uptick in play with misstep gone and fastbond around.
I once had a Marit lage get fire/iced (as in tap your Marit lage), opponent got an oath trigger off my tapped lage, gets inferno Titan, top decks his only Jace bounce Marit lage. That was a blowout right there. Lol. Clearly not normal but sometimes the strangest cards get you.
Reclaimer and Ouphe is a pretty solid beat down plan. I’ve been trying Hollow Ones in addition (since the deck already wants to run Bazaars). That should make it immune to random Surgical.
Deciding if Punishing Grove is viable, which is one of the areas the legacy builds can grind out insane CA along with Loams/Wrenn. I think a lot of blue decks struggle to out CA that. Long games can definitely get weird though, which will make some of the singleton land choices important.
Yeah crop rotation and fastbond works now that misstep is restricted
And Loam might see play now that karn tormods is restr, and less graveyard hate with golgari dredge decimated.
@vaughnbros I tried hollow one in the board for a while but it never impressed me in the deck. He can add more early beatdown value though.
I like Bob out of the board as well in certain metas. He provides incredible CA without having to use the yard or if the opponent goes crazy on grave hate. He’s not the world’s best beater but he adds a lot of value especially next to Ouphe/reclaimer
Punishing fire/grove has always been very medium for me in vintage. It can pick off walkers sometimes and certain creatures but it’s dead in some matchups and very slow. Maybe alongside Wrenn it has more value but I’ve never been a fan and don’t think it’s good enough in a deck that already has so few slots to play with. I’ve tried punishing fire in the board however and it felt better there but it was still awkward.
I’ve been going much more into black. I think it offers a lot more options in vintage for this deck then red.
Brewed a “Gruul Lands” deck:
4 Wrenn and Six
1 Wheel of Fortune
4 Life from the Loam
4 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Vigor
1 Mental Misstep
Chalice of the Void
1 Sphere of Resistance
1 Mox Diamond
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Glacial Chasm
I playtested it with a friend today, and it won matches against Survival and Aggro Shops (so extrapolating mathematically, this deck can't lose).
^ re: The 4x Wrenn & Stimpy, and 4x maindeck Force of Vigor, I wanted to maximize their gameplay during our limited playtesting. but Force of Vigor still seems great; they replaced Ancient Grduges, and the Disenchant effect gets most graveyard hate. btw there are 20 non-FoV green cards in the deck.
Wheel seems good when dumping your hand (via T1 Fastbond, or via T1 Exploration plus Bazaar-ing), and works with the “Tombstone Icon” cards (Life from the Loam and Riftstone Portal, and maybe Ancient Grudge).
re: 3 Thespian's Stage & 2 Dark Depths, idk how many is best. maybe it's 1/1, maybe 4/3.
the maindeck toolboxes (for 8-12 land tutors) is a The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (creature hate) and a Bojuka Bog (graveyard hate). but Bojuka Bog both enters tapped and is off-color, which really sucks.
no clue about the Sideboard. even with golgari grave troll restricted, I assume Dredge is still Tier-One, abd any graveyard deck will suffer during the sideboard games. so, I don't know if the countermeasure is a transformational sideboard, or more disenchant interaction, or what.
Protoaddict last edited by
Is there a PURE combo control version of this deck that isn't lands.dec trying to go for a depths kill. I was looking over possible combo pieces and there is a lot of redundancy to go infinite
Zuran orb or Troubled Healer
Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator
With that shell you can probably run most of the broken draw spells, 4x force of will, 4x negation, 1 MM, 4 force of Vigor and just go to town. Still thinking out loud but I think you can also just build the list with oophes, courser and have a beatdown secondary.
Restricted cards + Horn of Greed + Combo + Bunch of lands is an easy start. You might need FoV just to kill your own Horns.
I think the beatdown takes too much away from that approach as they clog up your deck with non-lands interfering with the Horn + Fastbond combo.
wfain last edited by
Could go toward the old Turboland style with Nexus of Fate?
The horn of greed combo can also utilize lab maniac and just draw out ftw.
wfain last edited by
Probably a lot of 3cmc, but Courser seems pretty dope in this Horn/Lab Man/Nexus of Fate plan
I used to prefer Cephalid Colliseum and 2x Factory as my kills. I’m not sure it’s viable on MODO’s anti-fun interface.
Well, you can always try something funky with 4 Workshop for the turn 1 Horn/Crucible alongside your 1 of Mystic Forge. Courser might be slightly harder to cast depending on how many green sources/esg you might run, but Zuran Orbs are free off Forge, if you went that route. Aether Flux is an option at that point as well as Channel. Lots of options.