Fastbond Brainstorming
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Trying to think of what should be in a list that can run 4x fastbond, and I think it has been so long since people looked at that card as a core strategy since it has been restricted forever that all the interactions are not even fully understood. Obviously things like Gush and Treasure cruise are included in the decks core but I trying to think of what other angles the deck may want to try and hit. Heres some of the stuff I have been looking to test/include in the list, would love other ideas if people have them.
Zuran orb / Crucible - Infinite mana, infinite life. There are some decks that cannot deal with infinite life at all (shops) but even if not then you have plenty of mana to do what you need. Easiest win past this point I would assume is Banefire but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
Cryptic caves / Crucible - Land only draw engine that contains no spells and is very hard to interact with. Goes infinite with Zuran orb. You can swap out the caves for one of the horizon lands, but the life cost would probably matter at that point.
Field of the Dead - Just seems solid in this deck as it is an uncounterable source of creatures. If you have a sac outlet and crucible online it can make a whole lot of if not infinite creatures. It functions a lot like a Valakut that requires no Mountains
Bojuka Bog / Halimar Depths / Other ETB lands - There are probably some number of these that are worth playing.
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Remember that, with Glacial Chasm in play, Fastbond no longer deals you damage. Just sayin'.
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Courser of Kruphix
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I wonder if it's finally time for [[Realms Uncharted]] to shine in Vintage.
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I've been wondering if there is a new draw7 variant using the new Twister from grave card alongside Bazzar/Intuition to bin it that would be viable. It would be like current PO shells but utilizing high land counts, and draw 7s alongside fastbond instead of PO and a bajillion Mana rocks. The upside being it can still run rods/Ouphes without hurting itself while chaining multiple draw 7s and making enough land drops to continue said chain.
Another option I been looking at is Enchantress. Between the Enchantress engine itself, and the fact Derp Step is now restricted, running 4 Fastbond and 4 Mystic Remora can lead to A LOT of draw and Mana production and very quickly.
I'll be working on several decklists in Cockatrice and post ideas, lists, and testing results later, but thoughts are obviously welcome!
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@serracollector said in Fastbond Brainstorming:
Another option I been looking at is Enchantress. Between the Enchantress engine itself, and the fact Derp Step is now restricted, running 4 Fastbond and 4 Mystic Remora can lead to A LOT of draw and Mana production and very quickly.
Yeah this is what I've been thinking about. I'm not sure what it looks like really but starting with Fastbond, Remora, 8 enchantress effects and Courser of Kruphix sounds fuuuuuunnn.
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SquirrelCraft is what I have been testing so far, and it's pretty simple to get and pull off. It's not hard at all to run a few Trops/Savannah's for Mystic, the big blue, and Enlightened tutor (another card I don't have to worry about being derpstepped) and still being able to run basic forests and Utopia/Wild growth to get any colors I need, as well still using Courser, Heralds, and Enchantress with Earthcraft to make "infinite" Mana. With 4 Utopia Sprawl, 4 Wild growth, 4 Mystic, and 4 Fastbond it's very very easy to chain out.
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Tatyova is also a consideration for a UG build allowing you to possibly draw your deck, especially with Courser. 5 is a lil high priced, but food for thought.
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I was looking at a draw 7 ish deck that uses a land mana base instead of rituals. Stuff like [[lotus vale]] is good too if use [[time spiral]].
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Starting point for me is turbodepths, this is my quick rough draft:
# RG TurboDepths ## Wiley Creatures (6) 2 Elvish Reclaimer 4 Collector Ouphe Artifacts (3) 1 Mox Diamond 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Ruby Sorceries (4) 4 Life from the Loam Instants (5) 2 Crop Rotation 3 Force of Vigor Enchantments (6) 4 Fastbond 2 Manabond Planeswalkers (3) 3 Wrenn and Six Lands (33) 4 Bazaar of Baghdad 1 Blast Zone 3 Dark Depths 1 Forest 1 Glacial Chasm 1 Karakas 1 Maze of Ith 1 Mountain 4 Riftstone Portal 1 Strip Mine 3 Taiga 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 4 Thespian's Stage 3 Wasteland 4 Wooded Foothills Sideboard (15) 2 Ramunap Excavator 3 Tireless Tracker 4 Grafdigger's Cage 2 Pithing Needle 1 Force of Vigor 3 CindervinesI'm 99% sure that depths combo makes it into any lands based desk these days. The question becomes what colors and what interaction you want to have.
Crucible/excavator don't really seem needed in the current environment, though courser might have space when you get up over 30 lands. As far as zuran orb/nomad stadium/kabira crossroads for inf life, I just don't see it as needed over glacial chasm these days. The combo now is a 20/20 flyer or this, almost certainly not both. Plus the depths combo dodges grave hate, unlike cycling barbarian ring or cephalid colosseum over and over.
Bazaar and loam is an excellent draw/card selection engine, I think that takes up slots long before the horizon canopy lands.
Field of the dead is interesting but slow. I don't think it would ever warrant a main deck slot, but if you are running a wish board it is a decent alt win con.
Bojuka bog should probably be in any deck with crop rotation. Haven't figured out a card to cut yet.
Horn of Greed exists as an alternative to Tatyova, it isn't one side but 3 is far easier than 3UG.
Looking at legacy, the GW TurboDepths decks have spicy tech like Tomik and Teeg as protection and disruption. Not sure they are vintage viable though.
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@john-cox said in Fastbond Brainstorming:
I was looking at a draw 7 ish deck that uses a land mana base instead of rituals. Stuff like [[lotus vale]] is good too if use [[time spiral]].
I tried doing this with High Tide and either my list or my playing or the core concept was pretty weak, or some combination of those or all three. It was pretty fun way to lose games though.
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Just want to mention that in a deck like this Grafdigger's cage is really good, asymmetrical, grave hate.
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Courser feels really good. Only thing that might be better is a different Future Sight effect, but then again the gain life is highly relevant to playing a dozen lands off of Fastbond.
I’ve been getting about turn 3 kills fairly consistently (when it has fastbond) in the TurboDepths shell. Issue is that outside of Waste and Ouphe it really doesn’t have much interaction. Storm decks probably crush it.
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@vaughnbros the biggest downside to courser is it’s a total blowout when opponent has force of vigor. Just a reminder more than anything, I’ve seen several people forget he’s an enchantment and it goes poorly lol.
Biggest thing to beating storm is a sphere based board. Your best chance is landing sphere then rod and keeping them off of lands as much as possible. Ritual storm is always lands’ worst matchup (outside of something off the wall like 8 moon). 4 sphere and trinisphere in the board and chalice gives you a decent shot against decks like DPS or at least buys you time. Often even a turn one lage on its own can be too slow.
I also like to diversify by splashing white for Thalia so if they keep hurkyls it’s not a total blowout. This is often not that hard since you already have multiple riftstone and karakas and Mox Diamond.
On the PO side of things I really like to splash black for Chains which buys a lot of time against them and has some effect on DPS and also a big impact against xerox.
Clearly none of these are an auto win but lands revolves around gaining incremental advantage and tightening the prison around them a lot of the time more than just jamming lage as fast as possible.
The deck can also easily support 4-5 colors which I’ve been playing for a long time. So branching out from the main base isn’t that bad.
Just some thoughts.
Happy brewing.
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@vaughnbros said in Fastbond Brainstorming:
Issue is that outside of Waste and Ouphe it really doesn’t have much interaction. Storm decks probably crush it.
Outside of adding 4-6 sphere effects I'm not sure that is solvable, and even then they are planning to win through that against shops. GW gives Teeg, but how likely is it that they can storm out without bounce/kill?
You could try BG with discard, and maybe a backup hogaak plan.
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I think I would be curious to see where depths combo goes, and if it is really the right build. I have always hated giving my opponent a turn to draw an answer, and marit lage still cannot beat infinite life.
Right now I'm trying to put together a BUG control list with it and I still really like having a deck filled with pitch answers and broken cards that just happens to have an "ops I win" switch every so often.
I'm really happy that there seems to be multiple builds for this though, it does make me feel like this was a good card to unrestrict.
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These decks need [[Veil of Summer]]
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I wouldn’t be too concerned about removal, or counterspells due to the sheer number of value cards in a lands shell. The reason to play the deck is this resilience to other control, and ultimately thus will need to be good against BUG.
Veil of Summer is potentially an interesting anti storm option that is playable against blue. On top of, or in addition to some more devoted hate. Don’t think Spheres seem right to me. The deck can’t really reliably play them turn 1.
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@vaughnbros the vintage version can much more easily run ancient tomb and it has a lot more fast mana and can easily play sphere turn one. Sphere has always been one of my best board cards in several matchups from xerox to all in combo. It’s one of the best ways to contain the unfair decks in the early games so that your toolbox of lands has a chance to get going and take over
Also post board removal is very important for the deck. I’m not sure why this wouldn’t be a factor you’d consider even given all the different lands.
