[M20] Embodiment of Agonies
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1BB
Creature -- Demon
Flying, Deathtouch
Embodiment of Agonies enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it for each different mana cost (note: not converted mana cost) among nonland cards in your graveyard.So to be clear, I don't think a straight beater is playable in Vintage anymore. And if I did, I'm not sure this guy is better than, say, Tombstalker. But the textbox here is so unusual I wanted to call attention to it.
Unlike Tarmogoyf, the power/toughness of Embodiment is locked in when you cast him; in the mid- to late-game, though, you get an awful lot of evasive body for three mana, even if you're not purposefully stocking the graveyard with Bazaar, dredging, etc.
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does phyrexian mana count as a different cost? i would imagine hybrid does.
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I think so? According to the comp. rules,
A card’s mana cost is indicated by mana symbols near the top of the card. (See rule 107.4.)
so I think costs involving Phyrexian mana, Snow mana, Hybrid mana, etc are all distinct from "ordinary" colored mana costs. I believe that X is also considered distinct from 0 or XX.
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So if you were to Oath this into play it would be like a 13/13 right off the bat.
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@desolutionist True, but is that better than having any of the big hasty flyers? It's easier to cast, but there is also a chance you end up with a 8/8 that gives a 3-4 turn clock.
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@wagner said in [M20] Embodiment of Agonies:
@desolutionist True, but is that better than having any of the big hasty flyers? It's easier to cast, but there is also a chance you end up with a 8/8 that gives a 3-4 turn clock.
I don't know, I was just identifying some context with how big it could be. I don't necessarily believe it's good at all, I'd have to test it out. Oath is certainly a place you could start since it's very good at putting cards into the graveyard. Who knows, maybe it's reliably a 16/16 and Reckless Charge is GG?
It's good to have Oath targets that you can cast. I've been using Niv Mizzet, Inferno Titan, and Archon myself. They're weaker than some other options but it is reasonable to cast any of those from the hand unlike Emrakul or Griselbrand. Emodiment of Agonies is even cheaper, which would help to mitigate some of the pitfalls of playing Oath.
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How big does a vanilla beater have to be to be playable?
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How often does a 20/20 Flying/Indestructible show up?
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That card also has Flash.
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@vaughnbros said in [M20] Embodiment of Agonies:
That card also has Flash.
My point being... not often. So, sure 20/20 Flash (I'll give you that), Flying and Indestructible an we still barely see it.
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I ask because if you built around this you can easily make it a 20/20 in Oath or Dredge at only 3 mana. It doesn’t pick up Dragon Breath though so you are going to have to pass after “going off” or using some likely bad card that gives haste.
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Another thing this does is that even when not big, it still functions as a removal spell or a tempo play.
I could see this in the sideboard of a combo deck where it either provides an alternate win-con in the face of hate or it buys you enough time to stitch together a win.
It's hard to evaluate how reliable this card is though, which will ultimately be the deciding factor on whether this is actually playable. -
@vaughnbros to be fair, while deathtouch is only marginally relevant, flying is far from vanilla as in Vintage it will be unblockable in most situations.
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Could this have merit in the darker survival lists, like the ones running Death's Shadow, Dr. Shaman, and Street Wraiths? This alongside Death's Shadow and Vengevines/Hollow Ones is a lot of beef.
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So Ponder and git probe in the yard means this is a 2/2 right?
What about something like ancestral visions with no mana cost (not advocating a deck with AV to make this bigger, just questioning how the rules work)?As far as decks this fits into - seems like a capable finish for mono black control or oath. Consider many strategies against oath include an early 'cant enter except from being cast' type card to stall out oath until they can go off, having this drop on turn 3 or 4 can really change games. We've all seen oath games where oath hits the board, the next turn cage hits the board, then its draw-go for ages. Those become, Oath, then cage, then this after a resolved oath trigger as a 10/10 or something around there. Thats game over.
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Rules question: How would this work with split cards? I know when looking at CMC you add both sides together, but this seems different. Does [[fire-ice]] get seen as 1U and 1R, or as just 2UR?
If it does count as two different costs, split card tribal would be a fun deck to try, though obviously not competitive.
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I see why this is not templated like Tarmogoyf, it would be a pain to keep track of the P/T at all times.
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@Boogdish Split cards count for only one.
708.4b The mana cost of a split card is the combined mana costs of its two halves. A split card’s
colors and converted mana cost are determined from its combined mana cost. -
Thanks Cuikui!
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Seems the most natural fit without trying to warp a Dredge/Oath list around an aggro card.
