Vintage Redux: A New Format for your Consideration

@Protoaddict I too enjoy Vintage highlander, but it never seemed to take off.

I will comment on your desire to use old cards in new and different ways, though. What about improving on old technology in new and different ways.

What would Magic knowledge of 2019 look like if we applied it to 1996 cards or decklists? How much more optimized could an Atog/Mana Crypt deck be, or a Reap Deck, or even a Zoo deck if we applied some modern fundamentals. I personally would be more interested in this than whether we can slot a new 1-of into Workshop Ravager. (Not to say we can’t have both!!)

That said, this was not a format meant to compete with Vintage, but more to complement Old School, and hence this might be the wrong place to post something like this. But I have a tremendous respect for TMD and have been a long-term lurker/participant, so I wanted to post it here first.

I find Redux to be a more compelling approach than something like Middle School which is niche and has a small target audience, but that said I might be totally wrong. Old School is a fixed format that is likely somewhat optimized. Having an evolving format in tandem with Old School, (that still contains many of the things people like about Old School) was intriguing to me. Apparently, I might be alone in that however 😉

At the end of the day though, the post wasn't meant to convince people this was a better format than anything we have, it was to see if there were other people like me that might be interested in an evolving Old School.

last edited by joshuabrooks

I play a game called Everquest. They have TLP servers the "TLP" stands for "Time Locked Progression". The server starts out with no expansions like it was in 1999, and every 3 months adds an expansion. This has been very successful and for a video game that started out 20 years ago, its amazing that they are still adding servers.

Theres also a similar thing happening soon with WoW, so the model is defiantly portable.

Here is a link to Ice T trash tralking on behalf of the top two guilds during the lead up to the launch of the most recent 2 servers.

TLDR; I like the idea and think it could take off.

I'm interested from 2022 onward.

Old School or 93/94 aren't played for the game experience. The actual play experience is pretty bad. It's primarily driven by aesthetics and nostalgia (and younger people who like to think they are experiencing how Magic was played to a lesser extent).

Vintage is supposed to be about the game experience and the deck building experience. You won't get that with this approach for a while until you have a sufficient card pool and so you'll kind of just be old school with hideous M10 lightning bolts for a couple of years.

@nedleeds said in Vintage Redux: A New Format for your Consideration:

Old School or 93/94 aren't played for the game experience. The actual play experience is pretty bad. It's primarily driven by aesthetics and nostalgia (and younger people who like to think they are experiencing how Magic was played to a lesser extent).

Vintage is supposed to be about the game experience and the deck building experience. You won't get that with this approach for a while until you have a sufficient card pool and so you'll kind of just be old school with hideous M10 lightning bolts for a couple of years.

I enjoy old school as a format, and like the back and forth nature of gameplay. However, I agree that Magic opens up a lot more later on. I think there are worthwhile areas to explore in Tempest Block and Urza's Block.

But who know, nobody has really explored these blocks with modern Magic knowledge. I think there are a lot more competitive deck options in 1995-2000 Magic for a beginner than in old school though.

@joshuabrooks said in Vintage Redux: A New Format for your Consideration:

nobody has really explored these blocks with modern Magic knowledge

There are formats called Premodern and Middle-School that do exactly that. 😉

@fsecco said in Vintage Redux: A New Format for your Consideration:

@joshuabrooks said in Vintage Redux: A New Format for your Consideration:

nobody has really explored these blocks with modern Magic knowledge

There are formats called Premodern and Middle-School that do exactly that. 😉

I thought they only explore those blocks, like without Alpha-Dark. No moxes, etc.

Regardless, the idea seems to be underwhelming and polarizing at best, and I’m not the person to be a catalyst. It was a cool idea, that I’ve given a lot of thought to, but apparently I might be the only one!!

I was seeking a format that could potentially tap into every single Vintage player’s nostalgia (at some point), but at this point there is little demand for that. I do appreciate the feedback from everyone and maybe it shall be resurrected in the future!

last edited by joshuabrooks

@joshuabrooks I think that any theory craft in the field of potential format design is terrific.

@joshuabrooks I like it. I've toyed with the idea of a Vintagy format only allowing old boarder sets but with a higher power level than middleschool/premodern/hyperextended.

I play a couple of different casual formats that have grown to be become quite popular. The key to succeed in creating a community is to start small and grow it organically. You don't need buy-in. Build it and they will come. Or not. 🙂

last edited by hardy

Hello all,
First post here since many years, please be indulgent (not a native english speaker).

If I had to create a new format, especially a "vintage redux", I would take an entirely different approach. Let's take this step by step :

What's the problem ?
-> There are fewer and fewer vintage players, especially paper players. Some fresh blood is needed.

What can we do to solve it ?
-> Bring in new players. MTGO has already failed doing this. Old School only brings back a few old players with old cards : no fresh blood at all.

Where can the potential new players come from ?
-> I guess the most plausible is legacy players. Explanations follow.

Why would they want to play vintage ?
-> To play with broken card that are banned in legacy. Each time I discuss with a legacy player, they take an interest about tinker, oath , yaugwill, necro...

What keeps them from coming to vintage ?
-> The answer is always the same : "I hold no chance without P9, and it costs way too much. I have no interest in playing dredge or fish, I'd prefer to play with broken cards, necropotence, etc. And well, I just don't want to play with proxies, that's no fun at all".

How can we make them step in vintage ?
We create a new intermediate format, that takes into account the price/availability of cards.

Fondamentally, that wouldn't be hard to create. We already have a banned list (ante, etc), and a restricted list. The only necessary step would be to move some cards from the restricted list to the banned list. These cards would only be the "legendary and unobtainable P9", + whatever is warping this new format. I would especially monitor bazaar and shop.
Bazaar : dredge might be just too powerful for this format.
Shop : this may be too powerful as well, but I guess shop decks can run without it.

Please do not brush this suggestion off too quickly. Please take the time and give it some thoughts. The players I target are from legacy : many already own FoW, bilands, fetchs, etc. Our non-P9 broken cards do not cost so much (except bazaar, shop, LoA, etc - many are under 100$, most cost next to nothing). This new format, if it became popular, would not impact the P9 prices. On the contrary, if players are attracted to vintage-like formats, more people will build a deck and want to add in power, that would sustain the prices, so no worry for P9 owners.
Maybe a good threshold for the ban hammer would be cards over 100

I can't even start to imagine the unique metagame that can come from this. This would be quite different from vintage or legacy as we know them. In short : yes, that would make "vintage unpow" a whole format.

last edited by StrayCat

From a practical standpoint, needing to change your deck every year would be very annoying, unless you ran it as full proxy or something.

As always, whenever someone proposes a new format, I say the same thing: if you want to start something, then do it yourself. Get a playtest group and make some decks and jam some games. Then if it ends up being good, start running tournaments.

You're not going to convert people with just a forum post, you have to build a (small) community first.

@mediumsteve said in Vintage Redux: A New Format for your Consideration:

From a practical standpoint, needing to change your deck every year would be very annoying, unless you ran it as full proxy or something.

And here I thought this was the best feature of the format. Being able to build a deck that is sustainable for a year, but also the ability to anticipate the next year.

But you are totally right. 2% inspiration, 98% perspiration is all that matters.

I'm not @JACO or @Prospero so I don't have the following, the dedication, or the means to promote an alternative format. I was merely passing on the 2%, or the idea. I thought the idea was awesome. This is a format that combines the best of Old School, Nostalgia, and Vintage, and that excites me. Maybe someone will pick up the gauntlet? Thanks for the feedback-

last edited by joshuabrooks
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