Your B & R list? What would it look like?

based off of the current restricted list here is what i would take off
lodestone golem-the card kept the blue decks in check and was very beatable
windfall-this is a risky one but the variance in it is why i say it should be unrestricted, its either great, or a dead card and can be a new draw engine for some decks
flash- i think this would be an ok card to unrestrict as it would open the doors to a new combo deck with either hulk or academy rector, and one card combos is nothing new (doomsday)

a few cards im iffy on are demonic consultation, its almost a fair card but not quiet. i feel like library is almost safe to unrestrict because (with my list) you are competing with gush and windfall engines. there is a chance that with all three unrestricted blue would be too good, but im not sure, so library isnt quiet safe yet. other than the three i mentioned earlier, i feel the restricted list should stay the same, 3sphere is way too good, as is chalice, dig is way to much card advantage, and 5 ancestral recalls is just broken.

Starting with the list as we are now...

Unrestrict-
Lodestone Golem
Mystical Tutor

See what that does for six months, season to taste.

@Khahan said:

There is no way memory jar should come off the restricted list. Around 2006-2008 I ran a welder/storm combo that used welder to abuse memory jar. Having 2 jar triggers on the stack meant I got the 7 cards I wanted. I could easily cycle 2 or 3 jar triggers and have my pick of hands. Combined with duress (and now with gitaxian probe) being able to see my opponents hand and then stack the triggers to the most advantageous outcome for me is broken.

I would like to see brainstorm, ponder, mystical tutor and chalice and lodestone come off the list and workshop go on. I know almost nobody else will agree with me on workshop but name one other mana accelerator of that efficiency that is unrestricted. Maybe if it was legendary I would feel different.

If a welder deck is the most broken thing you can do in the format with memory jar right now, then I'm all for it. Control slaver has tried to be revived a few times in the past years without success (when dack fayden was printed and thirst unrestricted).
In any case the powercreep has been a real thing since 2006-2008.

I don't think ponder and brainstorm would be good choices to increase diversity seeing the level of dominance Gush is already experiencing. That and Brainstorm is simply too good in general, there is no doubt most blue decks would auto start with 4 brainstorm.

about Workshop. Yeah it's very much an OP card, but Mishra's workshop in vintage is much more than just a card. It's extremely narrow so it forces you to run niche cards and interactions and it doesn't get access to most of the Restricted list good stuff. All the while it serves to punish the most extreme combo or greedy decks. Mishra's workshop if restricted would simply see the end of all artifact prison decks and just leaves the door completely open for inbred decks like Belcher to be oppressing. I don't think anyone wants to see the format ruled by turn 2 decks.

@Macdeath said:

If a welder deck is the most broken thing you can do in the format with memory jar right now, then I'm all for it. Control slaver has tried to be revived a few times in the past years without success (when dack fayden was printed and thirst unrestricted).
In any case the powercreep has been a real thing since 2006-2008.

I never said a welder deck is the most broken thing you can do. Just the opposite I was pointing out that while its restricted to 1 copy, something as simple as a welder lets you do broken things. Imagine what kind of brokenness multiple copies of jar could do. And this from somebody who still crams memory jar into decks because he loves the effect.

If jar came off the restricted list players like me would be rejoicing at how much fun we are having. And players like 100% of the opponents playing those 4xmemory jar decks would be complaining about much it sucks to lose your hand to jar 3 times in 1 turn.

@MaximumCDawg Inclusion of the ante cards is a very intriguing choice. Most of these are very bad; however Bronze Tablet and Timmerian Fiends both are 10-damage single-card combos in a lot of cases (when your opponent risks losing their Mox) and Contract from Below maybe be too busted even as a singleton.

Also I think Darkpact's current Oracle text may be broken, if I understand the rules correctly: can't you concede between the ownership change in the first sentence, and the exchange in the second?

4 brainstorm is cool in theory, but I don't think it would make the format more fun. Even Dredge and Shops would be running four Mental Misstep 🙂

With the current list as a starting point

Unrestrict
Golem or chalice

Restrict
Gush or mentor (preferably gush)

See what happens before making any further changes

FYI if you want a format where everyone plays 4 brainstorms you have legacy for that. A truly diverse format shouldn't be all about which draw engine your blue deck has. It should actually allow for more diverse strategies than are currently available

@Greolin said:

With the current list as a starting point

Unrestrict
Golem or chalice

Restrict
Gush or mentor (preferably gush)

See what happens before making any further changes

FYI if you want a format where everyone plays 4 brainstorms you have legacy for that. A truly diverse format shouldn't be all about which draw engine your blue deck has. It should actually allow for more diverse strategies than are currently available

Oh the irony.

You praise Legacy and define a truly diverse format as one that isn't about your blue draw engine.

Yet Legacy is the format where every single blue deck has 4 Brainstorm.

That's the worst possible example.

@Smmenen said:

@Greolin said:

With the current list as a starting point

Unrestrict
Golem or chalice

Restrict
Gush or mentor (preferably gush)

See what happens before making any further changes

FYI if you want a format where everyone plays 4 brainstorms you have legacy for that. A truly diverse format shouldn't be all about which draw engine your blue deck has. It should actually allow for more diverse strategies than are currently available

Oh the irony.

You praise Legacy and define a truly diverse format as one that isn't about your blue draw engine.

Yet Legacy is the format where every single blue deck has 4 Brainstorm.

That's the worst possible example.

You need to work on your reading comprehension.

I wasn't praising legacy, I was stating if you wanted to go have a Brainstorm circle - jerk you can go play legacy

Apparently so. I thought you were praising Legacy as a format where you can play 4 Brainstorms and also a diverse format. It wasn't clear from your post that you were condemning Legacy, but I agree with you on that point.

Alot of people point to Legacy as an especially diverse format. Yet, that's only superficially so, I believe.

Each card on the list would be restricted to a maximum number for legal inclusion in a deck between 1 and 3 (inclusive), based on its power level, namely how much the fastest version of decks with that card could be used to put early turn pressure on other decks, and force those decks to divert from other strategies in order to survive against a given card in its most potent known configuration. The banned list would remain the same. The restricted list would look like this.

Ancestral Recall - 1
Balance - 2 (Tempted to say 3 here... I want a balance deck to be possible, but not awesome.)
Black Lotus - 1
Brainstorm - 2
Chalice of the Void - 2
Channel - 2
Demonic Consultation - 2
Demonic Tutor - 1
Dig Through Time - 2
Fastbond - 2
Flash - 3 (this is the hardest card on the list... this might have to be a 2, but I'd try 3 first)
Imperial Seal - 2
Library of Alexandria - 1 (tempted to say 2, and if you don't like it run Waste but 1 seems better.)
Lion's Eye Diamond - 2
Lodestone Golem - 2
Mana Crypt - 1
Mana Vault - 2
Memory Jar - 2
Merchant Scroll - 2
Mind's Desire - 1
Mox Emerald - 1
Mox Jet - 1
Mox Pearl - 1
Mox Ruby - 1
Mox Sapphire - 1
Mystical Tutor - 3 (Maybe 3 is too many? But is this card that good now with Missteps? 2?)
Necropotence - 2 (Missteps hurt it so badly that 2 seems safe.)
Ponder - 2
Sol Ring - 1
Strip Mine - 1
Lotus Petal - 2
Time Vault - 1
Time Walk - 1
Timetwister - 1
Tinker - 1
Tolarian Academy - 1
Treasure Cruise - 1
Trinisphere - 1 (I actually think 2 would be ok here. They don't stack themselves or with sphere.)
Vampiric Tutor - 1
Wheel of Fortune - 1
Windfall - 2
Yawgmoth's Bargain - 1
Yawgmoth's Will - 1

new ones
Gush - 3

last edited by Topical_Island

@Topical_Island I'm ok with that as long as Fastbond is increased to 3 copies for Mark Hornung's brews.

@mickey.nobilis 3 Gush, 2 Merchant Scroll, 2 Fastbond... not enough for some insanity? Regrowth is totally unrestricted you know.... 😉

@Topical_Island said:

Each card on the list would be restricted to a maximum number for legal inclusion in a deck between 1 and 3 (inclusive), based on its power level, namely how much the fastest version of decks with that card could be used to put early turn pressure on other decks, and force those decks to divert from other strategies in order to survive against a given card in its most potent known configuration. The banned list would remain the same. The restricted list would look like this.

Ancestral Recall - 1
Balance - 2 (Tempted to say 3 here... I want a balance deck to be possible, but not awesome.)
Black Lotus - 1
Brainstorm - 2
Chalice of the Void - 2
Channel - 2
Demonic Consultation - 2
Demonic Tutor - 1
Dig Through Time - 2
Fastbond - 2
Flash - 3 (this is the hardest card on the list... this might have to be a 2, but I'd try 3 first)
Imperial Seal - 2
Library of Alexandria - 1 (tempted to say 2, and if you don't like it run Waste but 1 seems better.)
Lion's Eye Diamond - 2
Lodestone Golem - 2
Mana Crypt - 1
Mana Vault - 2
Memory Jar - 2
Merchant Scroll - 2
Mind's Desire - 1
Mox Emerald - 1
Mox Jet - 1
Mox Pearl - 1
Mox Ruby - 1
Mox Sapphire - 1
Mystical Tutor - 3 (Maybe 3 is too many? But is this card that good now with Missteps? 2?)
Necropotence - 2 (Missteps hurt it so badly that 2 seems safe.)
Ponder - 2
Sol Ring - 1
Strip Mine - 1
Lotus Petal - 2
Time Vault - 1
Time Walk - 1
Timetwister - 1
Tinker - 1
Tolarian Academy - 1
Treasure Cruise - 1
Trinisphere - 1 (I actually think 2 would be ok here. They don't stack themselves or with sphere.)
Vampiric Tutor - 1
Wheel of Fortune - 1
Windfall - 2
Yawgmoth's Bargain - 1
Yawgmoth's Will - 1

new ones
Gush - 3

I know these types of "points" restriction lists have been thrown around for years, and I never really considered them, but now that I think about it, MTGO is the PERFECT platform for some sort of format like this. Maybe something a little more casual, but where you could run 10 moxes if you really wanted to, but with obvious costs to the rest of your deck. That kind of format would take a lot of work to balance, but could be great for casuals. MTGO can calculate points very easily and quickly and prevent illegal decks.

As for paper, I don't see a points system ever working. It's just too much work. I mean, in all honesty, even the Origins tournament that gave away Champs byes last year didn't even do deck checks (if I am not mistake), so I can't imagine a local gamestore will. And even if they do, they have to lay out your entire deck, categorize it, and then double check it, as I doubt too many people would have an entire list of multiple variables memorized. At that point, you have to hope every opponent is honest. It's easy to notice your opponent playing 2 Ancestrals. But might be a little less memorable to know whether they are playing 3 or 4 Gush, etc.

Fun idea though! Imagine the kinds of threads we could have arguing over a list like this!!!!

I actually think another list would be very helpful to Vintage. I know topical has posted about it before and I've made a post about it before myself. Though for ease of tracking/simplicity I would keep the banned list a restricted list limiting copies on that list to 1 and a 'limited' list restricting copies on the limited list to 2. No 3 slot. I don't think it would be so onerous to have a new list of cards for people to keep track of. Knowing that the limited list includes say gush, mentor, windfall and ponder isn't really any more difficult than knowing now that the restricted list includes demonic tutor, chalice etc.

My response to that has always been.... we already play vintage mtg... we really can't count to 3 by integers?

@joshuabrooks I wonder if it would be okay to unrestrict Brainstorm if LSG and Chalice were unrestricted as well though...

Playing with ante cards is win-win if you're doing a play test tournament, too. You win a sharpied basic land.... but now your deck has a second lotus all night long. 🙂

@evouga said:

@MaximumCDawg Inclusion of the ante cards is a very intriguing choice. Most of these are very bad; however Bronze Tablet and Timmerian Fiends both are 10-damage single-card combos in a lot of cases (when your opponent risks losing their Mox) and Contract from Below maybe be too busted even as a singleton.

Maybe, but so is Black Lotus 🙂

Also I think Darkpact's current Oracle text may be broken, if I understand the rules correctly: can't you concede between the ownership change in the first sentence, and the exchange in the second?

Yeah, I think so, but the Oracle text is different from the printed text; the exchange is printed (dare I say, "intended?") to be simultaneous.

I would unrestrict Chalice of the Void, Flash, and Windfall--I would also consider unrestricting Library of Alexandria, but I'm hesitant on that one. I think Chalice is actually good for the format, in that it enables people without power to police and keep pace those who do have jewelry. It empowers fish and hatebear decks as well. I think Shops with Chalice but not Lodestone is fine, in that it improves their locking capabilities but doesn't kill you at the same time. Flash seems bad without Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll. Windfall is maybe a little risky, but I think it would be mostly fine.

I would consider unrestricting Gush, Mentor, both, or neither.

I would not do all of this at once.

I liked the Vintage emta before the Lodestone Restriction. Apparently some people didn't like that meta so I would try:
-Unrestrict Chalice of the Void

Chalice pushes decks to use a wider variety of mana costs instead of spamming one-mana cantrips. I would also consider unrestricting some cards. Memory Jar seems relatively safe to unrestrict. It would help combo but jar is expensive and weak to null-rod. In order to help combo I would conisder unrestricting imperial seal. The card is very costly in terms of cards and life and petition already exists. I also think its possible we could unrestrict merchant scroll and//or mystical tutor but I'm not sure that this would help the format.

  • 45
    Posts
  • 31015
    Views