[MH1] Echo of Eons
@blindtherapy But isn't that a lot of set up required when you already have a critical mass of cards that can produce the same effect which are more reliable.
Define critical mass? I think there are exactly two that are better or don't also put large (larger?) constraints on your deck than this. Outcome would be the obvious other, but there is a lot of hate for outcome in the format at the moment (karn, ouphe, narset), only some of which similarly affects this card.
The best reason (right now), is with 5 twisters you can prevent Dredge from ever doing anything in game 1. The other reason is it’s a bomby draw engine that doesn’t heavily rely on artifacts like PO. But in a vacuum, I’d agree that PO is a better card.
But this is no slouch either. If you’ve ever Echo of Eons twice on turn one, you’d know what I mean. It’s broken. You just have to build around it.
You agree it’s at least better than Deep Anal for a combo deck, right?
Why would you want to play this card over the plethora of alternatives that are all more broken and more practical?
What does this card enable that you couldn't do before that is better than what the current combo decks are doing?
I have a hard time buying that you end up ahead vs a control deck by putting 6 mana into this card (which can be pyroblasted or flusterstormed) to get it countered and recasting it on the following turn. Or even that this is a frequent enough occurrence to be reliable.
I tried to cover that but allow me to expand on the point more. Cards that have abilities from graveyards or from being discarded turn a negative into a positive and have the potential for considerable abuse. The Dredge mechanic, Hogaak, Arclight Phoenix, Vengevine, Cabal Therapy... there are so many examples from Vintage and other formats, past and present. It is the same quality that makes Echo contextually better than Timetwister and every other Draw 7.
But, doesn't the fact that you have to set it up make it worse than a card like timetwister?
I am not referring to the riddlesmith list, which I think completely offsets the drawback of the card and actually benefits from it. However, it remains to be seen whether that deck can outperform current combo decks.
I was thinking more along the lines of our established spell combo decks like DPS and PO, where this card is rarely going to be good and which would render those decks worse overall if you had to find room to add this card and a discard outlet.
At prima facie, this card does not belong in a Bazaar deck or a deck that would play Dack Fayden, which are the most obvious discard outlets in the format. So you would have to find another outlet which has synergies with a deck that would want access to the draw 7 effect. Riddlesmith seems like a good fit here, but I have not played with or against it.
I'm basically bringing up some of the arguments found in this article.
Given that it isn't good enough to build around in legacy, where the available combo enablers are much worse and where you have access to 4LED (which pairs divinely with this card), I have a hard time seeing this as relevant enough in vintage, objectively.
I will definitely acknowledge that this card has some very strong and unique qualities (First card of it's kind which makes it hard to assess, opens design space, increases threat density by having the potential to be a 2 for 1 against counterspells, the effect is very powerful, doubles as disruption against Bazaar decks)
But in the end, Echo of Eons seems too constraining for me to envision as viable (at least theoretically) and seems to suffer from the same issues that a card like Day's Undoing does (albeit less restrictively so).
I do hope I am wrong though because this card is definitely sweet and fun. I have full faith that if this card is breakable, Chubbyrain will find a way to build the deck that does so.
As far as Critical mass, I am referring to the Critical mass of available spell combo enablers: Memory Jar, Bolas's Citadel, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Oath of Druids, Gifts Ungiven, Paradoxical Outcome, Dark Petition, Burning Wish, Wheel of fortune, Timetwister, Tinker, Windfall, Yawgmoth's Will, Mind's Desire, ...
Draw7s are effectively almost as artifact mana reliant as Paradoxical outcome if you want to cast them in the first two turns and/or be able to consistently win the game after resolving one. If neither of those are part of your goals, then that begs to ask the question "why would you want to play those cards in the first place?".
@macdeath although I love theoretical and abstract discussions of cards during spoiler season, I feel like this kind of argument lacks a lot when the card in question has been released for some time. Have you played with the card? Some stuff you only learning trying the card out. Specially new effects like this. At this point discussing the card without having experienced it feels unhelpful.
EDIT: I think the main thing that makes this attractive to build for rather than Twister or Wheel is that this is unrestricted. That's the main appeal and the reason something like Riddlesmith works.
Just wanted to point out that Baral/Frantic Search isn’t reliant on artifacts at all and I would actually omit moxes from the list if Academy weren’t so broken with Frantic Search and if turn 1 Baral weren’t so important. If Frantic Search were legal in Legacy, there’s no doubt it would be too good with Echo of Eons.
And one of the defining characteristics of the Frantic Baral deck is that it can play 30 consecutive spells through a Karn or a Lavinia, cards that DPS and PO really struggle with.
But seriously, Misstep your thing and twister for 1U out of the graveyard? Draw 7 new cards with a Baral in play? Game, right?
If people are curious, my deck was on camera in round 2 at the NYSE. I wasn't very motivated for the event and I'm still not very motivated for Vintage, but the deck does a lot of cool things and will probably be my project in Vintage as I dabble in other formats. The feature match is below.
The interaction that brought a judge call involved Basking Rootwalla cast into Teferi (or not cast). The card states that if the card is not cast, it should be put into the graveyard. My opponent unfortunately had his copies of Rootwalla signed at that line of the reminder text. We called a judge to answer the interaction and it was ruled that the Rootwalla would stay in exile. I think this was a mistake but judges are also humans too. I made mistakes as well as I mistook an Ancestral for Riddlesmith activations and I shuffled an Eons into my deck at the end of game 1 (thinking that I had accidentally put it in exile instead). I was trying to play fast while also demonstrating the interactions and combos the deck is capable of.
@chubbyrain I would be excited to see a thread started on this list, the deck seemed cool, and made me wonder if maybe Urza had a place in it?