Anyone who does not think they need to own 4 of these is a loon. It won't be in every deck, but it will be in a ton of them with good reason. There are simply matches where this is better than FOW, though once again shops is the outlier.

I also think that with this printing a restriction of FOW or MM is viable in vintage, not to mention legacy.

Legacy would mean a ban, which would be wild. The format would look very different without free counters on the offense. Thalia stock would go up too.

I like this the more I think about it. It's not just a functional reprint, there's a real choice here in terms of which card is better for different formats.

this card pitches to force of will, it's likely playable.

Yeah this card is on my short list now of cards to keep an eye on for a future article.

Even if this does not make a full 4x in blue decks, its very easy to imagine extra pitch counters that are less narrow than something like disrupting shoal being run in sideboards or as counterspells 5-7 over some of the more narrow U options like spell pierce. Certainly this is a better option to a sphere against shops than disenchant and hoping you get the mana for it.

It does put real stress on a players card count so it could also lead to card draw that does not see that much play getting a little more attention as well.

Every Vintage player should set a reminder on their phones to re-read this thread in a year. Our takes on this card will likely be good entertainment.

Anyway, could be fine, could be great. My initial impression is that in Xerox, you probably want 0-1 copies; not sure the deck can really afford to 2-for-1 itself any more than it currently does with FoW.

Can we still call FoW “Force,” or will that create confusion?

This card seems incredibly well designed for its purpose. It appears they were trying to incorporate the combo fighting Power of force of will into modern without allowing people to use it to protect combos. They did so in a very narrow way.

I'm not sure this card actually matters at all for vintage because with excess to four forces of will, how many decks actually need another four cards to protect themselves from broken combo? What decks in the current meta have a huge problem dealing with combo? Those decks might have some number of these in the sideboard

This is a better pitch counter than Misdirection, and it already sees play. I really like that you can hard cast it (for not a whole lot more than Mana Drain).
I think this will replace Mindbreak Trap in blue decks.

Its a great card!

@maximumcdawg this is a vintage forum, but I'll point out that for modern this does little to stop creature-based combos, albeit not protecting them either usually. not sure if that is fully the intent or not.

I can appreciate the power of a 0 mana counter spell, but how many decks (aside from perhaps Standstill) want FoW 4-8?

@nba84 said in [MH1] Force of Negation:

I can appreciate the power of a 0 mana counter spell, but how many decks (aside from perhaps Standstill) want FoW 4-8?

How many more decks do you need? There is only one deck in the format running oath of druids and forbidden orchard but it is likely if they could have 5 they would. Narrow does not mean bad nor does it mean its not going to be a staple.

@protoaddict if you read my post carefully you'll notice it's a question not a statement.

Although the card has the laziest name (FoW + Pact of Negation) it's a pretty clever design. I like it a lot. Now, this makes Teferi, Time Raveler even better. Being able to combo, Tinker or whatever during your opponents turn and have more ways to protect it seems relevant.

Pitch Dredge will play 4.

I think it’s much closer to a 4-of in other FoW decks than a 1-of too.

  1. This card is very cast-able in a blue shell.
  2. How many hands do you play where you say, if only I had a Force?
  3. Every current deck is capable of surging a 2 for 1 if it comes with a massive gain in tempo.
  4. Unlike typical anti-Storm cards this is solid against Shops, stopping turn 1 three-ball, CotV, sphere lock out and other problematic openers.

Blue decks have access to more card draw than ever before with A call, Cruise, Dig, PO, TfK, Standstill, Planeswalkers, etc etc. Running 8 Forces is card disadvantage, but with the mass draw how much of that drawback is negated (no pun intended)? I think this card alone is going to keep Gush on the restricted list for a long time.

last edited by Serracollector

The comparison to FOW is that you pitch a blue card but you don’t lose a life which is very relevant. You can only pitch when it’s not your turn and it can’t hit creatures. So, it’s good in blue mirrors and against certain combo decks.

This card is for sure playable and will see play especially since we have the insane planeswalkers running around that are only starting to change the meta. Even against shops you can stop Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance on their turn one. I would say 2 of main maybe over Flusterstorm.

@fsecco said in [MH1] Force of Negation:

Although the card has the laziest name (FoW + Pact of Negation) it's a pretty clever design. I like it a lot. Now, this makes Teferi, Time Raveler even better. Being able to combo, Tinker or whatever during your opponents turn and have more ways to protect it seems relevant.

I'm not sure how lazy it is since I believe you got it wrong. The card is Force of Will because of the pitch ability, but also Negate because of the can't counter creatures aspect. If it was based of pact I assume there would be a tax on it but could counter anything.

@protoaddict Ha, I was wondering what the Pact of Negation reference was about and that didn't even occur to me! They should have called it Force of Anticombo.

@bactgudz said in [MH1] Force of Negation:

Worst card name ever

We just had a creature called "Massacre Girl."

  • 33
    Posts
  • 7074
    Views