[WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils
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Bolt (and any other card that deals with Narset once it hits play on a 1 for 1 basis) is a really bad answer as your opponent has already fired off an Impulse. It's basic card advantage - you are down a card and your opponent is even with likely a restricted card replacing Narset.
Also, really? You just use the second impulse on the first Narset and then cast the second Narset and Impulse again. If you have a third, you can do it next turn. I've started building decks with four copies. Without a plus ability, there's very little diminishing returns in running multiple copies. It's not like you would be able to just use the first copy indefinitely, like Jace, Dack, or Teferi. Narset isn't a traditional planeswalker. It's a draw spell over two turns.
Yes, Shops is an issue to format diversity but that is outside the scope of this thread IMO. In Narset though, I see a lot of similarities to both Dig though Time and Mentor. I was also somewhat flabbergasted that my experiences were different than others and mentioning restriction in any capacity is certainly going to get people to comment.
So while I feel that it's much too early to take policy action, especially with the potential for London on the horizon, meh, I used the r-word.
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@protoaddict said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
If you use her once shes in bolt range, and bolt is the answer for just an awful lot right now.
(...) I guess my question is if you never use her -2 to draw a card, how good in an enchantment that can be attacked by creatures or with incremental damage that prevents draws?This kind of thinking is just wrong imo. Even if your opponent is playing Bolt, you (almost) always -2 Narset immediately. If he bolts her, it's still a 2-for-1 and you got on the better side of it. If he untaps and finds REB or creature + walk or whatever, you'll regret not -2ing.
It's just like Jace TMS. Except for corner cases, how often do you think +2ing Jace to protect him from Bolt is optimal? I'll tell you not that much. In a topdeck war? Sure. Is he your only threat and you kinda need him to stay? Sure. In any other situation? Just Brainstorm and you'll be happier and ahead in the game even if he gets Bolted.
Remember, friends: spot removal is bad against PWs exactly because you can only do it after they already gained advantage. That's why CA generating PWs are always the best, and why REB/Pyro will be much more prominent than Bolt in the following meta.EDIT:
@chubbyrain said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:Bolt (and any other card that deals with Narset once it hits play on a 1 for 1 basis) is a really bad answer as your opponent has already fired off an Impulse. It's basic card advantage - you are down a card and your opponent is even with likely a restricted card replacing Narset.
Posted without seeing your answer! That's pretty much it
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@fsecco said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
Remember, friends: spot removal is bad against PWs exactly because you can only do it after they already gained advantage. That's why CA generating PWs are always the best, and why REB/Pyro will be much more prominent than Bolt in the following meta.
OMG, I so hope this is true. My decks will be so happy if bolt is less used and REBS ramp up.
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@chubbyrain I was very high on this card and the So Many Insane Plays guys were as well. I think the blue shell is going to evolve. She really challenges the blue stew that we have become accustomed to and I’m very happy about this. I see some very interesting deck builds coming from this card.
Dealing with Shops and Eldrazi is going pose an intriguing challenge. I am looking into mill strategies. I think she is so one sided that a painter style combo could do well or Helm and Rest In Peace.
She may even bring back the old Tezzeret, the Seeker decks.
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@chubbyrain said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
Bolt (and any other card that deals with Narset once it hits play on a 1 for 1 basis) is a really bad answer as your opponent has already fired off an Impulse. It's basic card advantage - you are down a card and your opponent is even with likely a restricted card replacing Narset.
Sometimes you just have to deal with a board state though which means a bad answer is better than no answer. Since there is truly no answer to narset that is not card disadvantage, you might as well use the most efficient answer you have available. Assuming narset resolves and your opponent immediately -2 her, would you rather spend a card to stop another -2 next turn or let him gain even more card advantage from it?
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That’s what makes her broken. Her worst case is an impulse that gains 3+ life, her medium case is a 2 or 3 for one, and her best case is a blowout win.
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@khahan What @vaughnbros said.
That was a key issue with Mentor in that even if you dealt with the card, you still ended up behind most of the time. Or you warped your deck and played Sudden Shock, Illness in the Ranks, and Sulfur Elemental to compensate. And that eventually stopped happening as people just started playing more Mentors. In the meantime, Shops was consistently at a 60% match win rate.
In all cases, you end up with a format warping card.
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@khahan The point is that yes, you'll want to Bolt her, but that doesn't mean it makes the player with Narset consider not -2ing her because of that. It's still a bad trade for you, just not an awful trade. So the point is that if you think you'll play 3-4 Bolts and have good matches against Narset, you're wrong.
@thewhitedragon69 said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
@fsecco said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
Remember, friends: spot removal is bad against PWs exactly because you can only do it after they already gained advantage. That's why CA generating PWs are always the best, and why REB/Pyro will be much more prominent than Bolt in the following meta.
OMG, I so hope this is true. My decks will be so happy if bolt is less used and REBS ramp up.
This is already happening in Legacy. Miracles turned back to UWr because playing 3-4 REB/Pyro is the only way you're not blown out by Narset/Teferi. Of course Bolt will be present too, but not it makes much more sense to pack REB/Pyro. They were already good in the format, now I feel they'll become ubiquitous.
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Just pointing one thing: Narset interaction with "draw 7" spells is crazy. Even pairing her with Dack can disrupt your opponent's hand.
I was about to invest some money in Mox Opal to build a PO deck, but seeing how the format is becoming a Narset x Karn war, I don´t think PO will stand a chance. A crazy mind should put both in the same list and break everything
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My argument with Bolt is that it is "answerable", unlike some other cards for decks without access to counter magic. This is not Moat against a deck with no flyers and no enchantment removal.
There are match ups and times where playing a 3 mana Narset to just draw a card (with the potential to wiff, all be it a small one) and gain 3 life is a hugely tempo negative play. This is very pronounced against shops obviously. Where as a resolved Jace is typically gas against any deck in the format, there are places where you would which this was sided out.
Her interaction with Draw7 cards is great, but once again depending on match up your opponents lightning bolt/whatever can remove her from the equation at instant speed, so it is not as if there are not "answers". And once again against shops, depending on the match up she may only be curbing what your opponent can draw from an empty grip, making your card go from dead card to playable, as opposed to being an absolute haymaker like it is if your opponent is holding a grip.
None of this is to say she is not a good card, she is. What it is to say is that none of that screams restrict-able to me, especially when Shops and Bazaar are still untouched in the format.
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@protoaddict said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
None of this is to say she is not a good card, she is. What it is to say is that none of that screams restrict-able to me, especially when Shops and Bazaar are still untouched in the format.
I hope restriction is not something we'll talk in this thread now. Anyone venting this ideas should just stop posting haha. I think the thread is more about recognizing how strong she is and how to play hear optimally.
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@protoaddict said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
If you use her once shes in bolt range, and bolt is the answer for just an awful lot right now. I also think she has something of her own restriction as is it, being a legendary in a very crowded slot. All things equal I would much rather have my first Ashiok or 3 mana Teferi than a second Narset sitting in hand.
I guess my question is if you never use her -2 to draw a card, how good in an enchantment that can be attacked by creatures or with incremental damage that prevents draws? Shops is well positioned against her obviously, but I have to believe most creature decks like humans/hatebears are as well, and the only reason those decks are not a larger part of the meta is the prominence of shops, which gets us back into the whole argument of why would you restrict this card when the card that is preventing format diversity as well as preventing answers to this one is shops itself?
I believe you're right that Hatebears is in a good position right now. Better than it has been for a long time. These new Planeswalkers don't really do anything against Hatebears, though the resurgence of Karn, Scion of Urza in some Shops builds have proven to be a problem, but overall the matchup against the Karn Shops is certainly better than against the aggro Ravager Shops.
I'm currently hovering between a 62% and 73% winrate with different versions of WGB Hatebears on a mix of Cockatrice and MTGO. The key card is Sanctum Prelate. That card is simply bananas at the moment. Prelate @ 1 just outright wins the game against Xerox (atleast against the UR versions - Jeskai still doesn't just scoop to it because of Mentor), it's amazing against Paradoxical Outcome, it's one of the best cards you can play against Oath (which in my experience has seen a resurgence on MTGO the last few days) and it's finally not just dead against Shops (the Karn versions, that is).
The worst matchup for Hatebears is Eldrazi for sure, then Shops and then BUG if they play Tarmogoyf (of course this depends on how you design your deck).
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@chubbyrain said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
@khahan What @vaughnbros said.
That was a key issue with Mentor in that even if you dealt with the card, you still ended up behind most of the time. Or you warped your deck and played Sudden Shock, Illness in the Ranks, and Sulfur Elemental to compensate. And that eventually stopped happening as people just started playing more Mentors. In the meantime, Shops was consistently at a 60% match win rate.
In all cases, you end up with a format warping card.
Got ya. The way I read your first comment I was responding to almost made it sound like you were saying, "dont use this to answer her because it a bad answer." As opposed to, "answer her with what we've got even though what we have sucks." Big difference.
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@khahan Ahh. Yeah, bad answers are better than no answers at all but they don’t keep a card from seeing play. If you read the restriction announcement on Dig, they basically cite the lack of diversity in Blue draw engines and I think Narset has the same potential because of the high floor and ceiling.
@Protoaddict That logic didn’t work with Delve spells (graveyard removal). It didn’t work with Chalice, Thorn, Golem (Ingot Chewer, Spree, Moxen, etc...). It didn’t work with Mentor (Sudden Shock, Sulfur Elemental, Moat). And for some who wants Workshop restricted so badly, it’s particularly egregious as you should realize every deck can technically answer Shops with any number of cards (Wasteland, Ghost Quarter, Damping Sphere).
Have you played with the card? I have to ask because you suggested not using its best ability in one post and thought multiples were bad in another, positions that should be quickly dispelled by a couple matches.
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It's looking like Karn might get the R first.
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/vintage-challenge-2019-05-22
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@chubbyrain
Just like Narset, Karn is not great against creatures. I think people need start to make adjustments and run more dudes in Vintage for once.
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Can we dream of merfolks or goblins (with cratermaker) in vintage?
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@vaughnbros said in [WAR] Narset, Parter of Veils:
@chubbyrain
Just like Narset, Karn is not great against creatures.
If you think that, I have a bridge to sell you (or wish for out of the sideboard).
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@chubbyrain
I've lost many a game already trying to wish for Ensnaring Bridge against an aggro deck. I think there is a reason most of the decks have Wurmcoil and/or Batterskulls instead, but its not like those aren't cards that decks already should have answers too as well.
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I for one think it's really the time we start playing stuff like [[The Elderspell]], [[Price of Betrayal]] or other cards that kill non-blue AND blue PWs. Any ideas?
The problem is that Karn is immediately out of Price of Betrayal's range and also destroying a PW after an activation is usually just bad, as we already discussed here. Maybe that card that counters a colorless spell?
EDIT: [[Ceremonious Rejection]]
