How much shake up is too much

@moorebrother1 Absolutely, and I really hope archetypes emerge which are built around these new cards. I definitely think Bolas' Citadel is one such card, and is definitely the one I want to build an archetype around when it gets released. I more just mean I don't think this set will shake up Vintage too much. We'll hopefully get a few new archetypes and a few new toys in existing ones.

@aelien I don't even see where is the shake up. Narset and Karn? This has happened before with other cards that eventually got restricted (or not). Cards from Modern Horizons? Meh.

This was meant as a comment at how the MH1 seems to have immense impact on the format while the dust from WAR hasn't really settled yet.

@aelien An my point is what exactly do you call shake up? Narset and Karn sure did shake everything up, which was pretty cool. None of the other cards on the OP actually saw a bunch of play to a point we can say they shook things up.

But what do you honestly expect will "shake up the format" from MH1? Shenanigans, Force of Vigor and Collector Ouphe are all artifact hate cards that will sure see play, but the most they'll do is make green more prominent in the format, which is cool. Everything else seems cool, and even playable, but not too prone to change anything drastically. Maybe we'll see the new Echo of Eons be the new Gaea's Blessing in Oath, which is awesome. What more?

last edited by fsecco

@aelien I'm not even sure the dust from Ravnica Allegiance has settled yet, honestly. At minimum I feel like Cindervines/Jund and that version of Kaya have more exploratory juice in them--they had just started putting up results when WAR came out and dumped a bunch of new stuff into the format. And with WAR, there's so much potentially-relevant stuff that there hasn't been anywhere near enough bandwidth to put it all through the paces. People have latched onto the backbreaking stuff (Narset and Karn) and the one powerful combo piece (Citadel) to a lesser extent, and there are probably a dozen cards that could turn out to be real players that haven't really been explored yet. And they might not be for a while because Horizons is also going to give us a bunch more stuff.

It takes a long time for dust to settle in Vintage.

That said, I don't think any amount of "shake up" is inherently bad. When Wizards prints interactive cards that create new decks, that's great for the format. When Wizards prints dominant cards that entrench established archetypes and are un-interactive, that's bad for the format. Both can be considered a "shake up". Right now, I feel like Karn and Narset are analagous to reprinting Lodestone Golem (or whatever broken, restricted colorless card) and Dig Through Time, in terms of a shake up. In the same set. Which can be pretty miserable to play.

Modern Horizons looks much more positive in that the spoiled cards, don't inherently slot into the Karn - Narset decks (though 8-Force Dredge isn't something I look forward to). But most are going to be role players and not really format defining cards. I still think the format will be defined by Karn - Narset - Bazaar.

A complete format shake up is completely reasonable. Vintage players rest on their laurels assuming that they won't have to adapt to new printings at the same pace as Standard players. What MODO taught a lot of local end bosses (for a lack of a better term) is that they need to adapt to survive, and not just rest on their same 75 week in and week out.

@Protoaddict, your list of cards is hardly a "shake up". They are blue, black and brown, the same three colors that have defined Vintage for its entire history. They are the same basic effects repackaged, much in the same way most of the War of the Spark planeswalkers are personal Howling Mines repackaged in various colors and sizes.

I think Vintage could benefit from a shake up that something like Standard experiences, where red oscillates from Tier 1 and Tier 3, color combinations go from unsupported to supported and back, and styles of hate and countermeasures go from existing to not. I'd like to see a Vintage where blue is green and black is red, where new printings cause an entire format upheaval but the format retains a balance. What if the two Spirit Guides outclassed brown's ability to generate mana? What if white was Tier 1 and the format respected that? There are so many unimaginable ways a shake up could really play out.

TL:DR - War of the Spark didn't shake up the format and an actual shake up would be cool as long as the resulting metagame was balanced.

last edited by Shopsaholic

@shopsaholic said in How much shake up is too much:

TL:DR - War of the Spark didn't shake up the format and an actual shake up would be cool as long as the resulting metagame was balanced.

Top 8 stats for decks with fow without bazaar 3 challenges before WAR

April 28: 6/8
April 21: 4/8
April 14: 6/8

Top 8 stats for decks with fow without bazaar the 3 last MTGO challenges (after WAR, excluding the one that was immediately after release)

May 12: 2/8
May 19: 2/8
May 26: 2/8

Out of those 6 decks, 5 played narset...
There could be tons of reasons for this, people want to try new things etc. But it seems strange to argue that WAR didn't shake up the format...

last edited by JosefK

@josefk They are defining a "shake up" as something that disrupts the Blue, Colorless, Bazaar triumvirate of Vintage, so this doesn't meet that definition since it merely changed the balance of power between the establishment. Colorless got more powerful with Karn. Blue got weaker with Narset cannibalizing it's own results. Your top 8 results show that (though they are somewhat skewed by the London mulligan testing in April).

I mean, it's an argument dripping in condescension for Vintage players (though I'm not even sure this person knows us that well), flawed in several ways, and is not even that original as I've seen it repeated several times before (green needs it's own Ancestral Recall, it's own Force of Will, it's own Workshop, etc...).

@chubbyrain

As almost all of these discussions end up, its all about how you are classifying decks. If you just want to look at:

Islands
Bazaars
Ancient Tombs

I won't tell you that you are wrong, but that classification system is never going to change much due to the inherent power in the mana-bases. The Islands decks looks dramatically different than they did a couple of months ago. The Ancient Tombs decks do too. And with the London Mulligan + Printings of Hagaak/Force of Vigor Bazaars will too.

@vaughnbros It's not my argument, so you are not telling me that I am wrong, unless you believe I summarized cardholics argument inaccurately...

In any case, I'm not really interested in another deck classification discussion. I've grown way too tired of them from the metagame reports we used to do.

last edited by Guest

@chubbyrain

I meant it as more a "you all", "y'all", "yose" than a true singular "you" aimed at the whole discussion, sorry if it made you feel singled out (I'll spare you from the English is not a good language rant) was just responding to the most recent comment.

My point is just that a person's perception of the format usually comes down to how a person is classifying the decks. If you make a classification in one way (by the mana bases), the format rarely changes, if you make a classification in another way (by win cons / enablers), the format is always changing. Everyone's classification seems to vary and all the times its been discussed, not one can agree, so yeah I'm not really into starting it again either.

@chubbyrain said in How much shake up is too much:

@josefk They are defining a "shake up" as something that disrupts the Blue, Colorless, Bazaar triumvirate of Vintage, so this doesn't meet that definition since it merely changed the balance of power between the establishment. Colorless got more powerful with Karn. Blue got weaker with Narset cannibalizing it's own results. Your top 8 results show that (though they are somewhat skewed by the London mulligan testing in April).

I mean, it's an argument dripping in condescension for Vintage players (though I'm not even sure this person knows us that well), flawed in several ways, and is not even that original as I've seen it repeated several times before (green needs it's own Ancestral Recall, it's own Force of Will, it's own Workshop, etc...).

This post is an entirely correct interpretation of mine.

@shopsaholic said in How much shake up is too much:

@chubbyrain said in How much shake up is too much:

@josefk They are defining a "shake up" as something that disrupts the Blue, Colorless, Bazaar triumvirate of Vintage, so this doesn't meet that definition since it merely changed the balance of power between the establishment. Colorless got more powerful with Karn. Blue got weaker with Narset cannibalizing it's own results. Your top 8 results show that (though they are somewhat skewed by the London mulligan testing in April).

I mean, it's an argument dripping in condescension for Vintage players (though I'm not even sure this person knows us that well), flawed in several ways, and is not even that original as I've seen it repeated several times before (green needs it's own Ancestral Recall, it's own Force of Will, it's own Workshop, etc...).

This post is an entirely correct interpretation of mine.

I disagree with your interpretations of my words. I specifically used the term shake up because it was subjective without clearly defined parameters. It is about a persons interpretation of what that is. I have personal feelings about what shakeup means mind you, but everyone defines their own. To some it could be entire pillar shifts, while to some it can be as simple as a formerly viable card getting the boot.

@protoaddict Please just ignore my post if you don't like my subjective view/definition of shaking up the format.

FWIW, I love the shake up that WAR and now MH1 is going to cause. The triumvirate, as rightly alluded to, is a narrow chunk of the whole of magic. I welcome more colors leaking into the format as major players. When a handful of decks/strategies become the only thing you need to worry about, it gets stale to me. I know others enjoy knowing they will only face 3 decks in 80% of their matches and making their main/sb accordingly. Others, like me, like facing an unknown field and making a well-rounded deck that is not inherently weak to anything, but not necessarily a slam dunk in any one matchup.

And the london mulligan is officially coming. We live in interesting times.

@winterstar said in How much shake up is too much:

And the london mulligan is officially coming. We live in interesting times.

"Ancient Chinese curse"

From I have seen so far, I'm not sure if we have shake up or polarization.

When Lavinia was release she polarized the format in a very negative way and the format adjusted. When the London mulligan was being tested, it polarized the format but then it went away.

Now, we have Karn and Narset creating a polarization that I have not seen since Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise. Even 2016 with the Eldrazi onslaught does not measure up to this insane amount of polarization.

The meta-game is ok for now but the community is fractured in a negative way. The polarization creates contempt and that makes for some really bad feelings about the format.

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