Competive unpowered decks?
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Outside of dredge, I think almost every deck can benefit from lotus, so that's your biggest hurdle. There are a handful of very good decks that use a couple duals, a lotus, 2-3 on-color moxen, and then affordable cards to round it all out. If you are in blue, ancestral and time walk just make everything better. Your best bet would be some kind of non-blue deck if you want to run something optimal without Ancestral/walk/bazaar/shop and minimal moxen. I don't think you can be optimal in anything non-dredge without lotus.
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@thewhitedragon69 said in Competive unpowered decks?:
Outside of dredge, I think almost every deck can benefit from lotus, so that's your biggest hurdle. There are a handful of very good decks that use a couple duals, a lotus, 2-3 on-color moxen, and then affordable cards to round it all out. If you are in blue, ancestral and time walk just make everything better. Your best bet would be some kind of non-blue deck if you want to run something optimal without Ancestral/walk/bazaar/shop and minimal moxen. I don't think you can be optimal in anything non-dredge without lotus.
Something, Something, Something, Null rod, Something, Something Eldrazi ancient tombs
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UR Delver is reasonable without power - I played it in a side event at SCGCon last summer and had a good time. @Thewhitedragon69 is right that you absolutely won't be optimal without Lotus et al - you're giving up all your most busted plays, and you'll have a harder time clawing back into the game when you're losing - but you'll still be able to play and win games of Magic. Access to stuff like Null Rod will do a bit to close the gap between you and the powered players, and you can mess around with cards people don't normally play around in Vintage (Daze, Price of Progress, etc).
Landstill sounds reasonable to me, though I don't have any experience with the archetype. You might also be able to make something Jundy work.
I would avoid decks trying to do unfair things.
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@protoaddct
Well, he said he doesn't want Eldrazi, so that's out. Null rod is probably the way to go - stop power if you're not running power - but even then, a lotus is just optimal. Land, lotus, sac for null rod is infinitely better than land, pass, let your opponent go ape and hope to play rod off your second land drop. -
First off, thank you all for your helpful answers.
I think that I will not buy a Tabernacle, I am rather like to spend that amount of money for power, if I could
So to clear things out without power, every deck should run at least 2 - 3 copies of Null Rod or Stony Silence? That would me bring to Landstill or a Delver list. For Delver is it better to be straigth Ur or is a Black splash for Shaman, Discard, Demonic Tutor and maybe Yawghmots Will worth it?
And what`s about an Oath list with Null Rod, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Petal as a form of accelaration and Turn 1 Null Rod. Maybe with Tinker and Blightsteel Colossus too? Would that be just to slow without power, or also a possible starting point? -
Tinker without power seems a lot worse, since you are way less likely to have the 3 mana and the artifact in play, even if you are playing null rods to make up for some of them. Powerless + null rod oath can be a thing, i would lean into the mana denial and also play wastelands/strip mine.
That being said, where do you play that proxy vintage isn't an option? Everywhere i have ever played (besides champs, and maybe 1-2 other big tournaments) are at least 5 proxy if not 15+.
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Remember you can also basically play Chalice of the Void in every single unpowered deck too.
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@garbageaggro said in Competive unpowered decks?:
champs
I plan on playing at a few locals, which doesn't allow proxies and the MKM series. I am from Germany and aren't that much accepted like in the US I think. For Oath would you rather go with an Ugr list which can better support Wasteland, or would you do the black splash for Demonic, Vampiric and Will?
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The splashes are pretty cheap because you are running at least 4 5 color lands for sure.
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@shadowandlight Oath and Landstill without Moxen lose a bit of their appeal too. Best thing you can do is play the namesake cards turn 1. I guess you could use stuff like Petal, Diamond or even Spirit Guides though.
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Yes that was what I have thoughted about. Mana Crypt, Petal, Sol Ring and maybe Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox as 1ofs too.
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@fsecco Spirit guide+Oath is not a combo.
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Yes Oath + Guide doesn't work otherwise I would play them.
Annother thing I am unsure about is the right creature configuration in Oath. Is it worth to run Griselbrand without Key + Vault for winning on the spot? Are Emrakul or Blightsteel Colossus needed for not decking yourself? And how good is Niv-Mizzet, Parun? -
The competitive unpowered deck is Eldrazi. Followed by different varieties of hate bears, and Landstill. This is because these decks have an inherent ability to take advantage of the Null Rod effect.
Oath looses its best hands of turn 1 Orchard+Oath.
I don't understand the allure of playing Mox Diamond as this is just a worse version of other moxen. Spirit Guides at least have some edge cases of being better.
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@garbageaggro said in Competive unpowered decks?:
@fsecco Spirit guide+Oath is not a combo.
Sure it is: give your opponent a 1/1 with Forbidden Orchard, get a 2/2. You're way ahead!
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Ok I understand. I said it in my opening post, that I just dislike Eldrazi. To be true I hate them in Legacy and can't ever see myself playing them. But I am really open minded for Landstill. I play Miracles in Legacy and really enjoy it so playing any kind of Uw Control strategy would be nice for me. Same counts for an Uw or Esper hate bears, where I can play Force.
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This seems like a starting point:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=21142&d=340923&f=VI
It looks like TakeYourT1me plays the deck a lot. You only have to cut 3 moxen, Ancestral, Time Walk (and Moat out of the board if you don't have that from Legacy).
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@stuart said in Competive unpowered decks?:
UR Delver is reasonable without power - I played it in a side event at SCGCon last summer and had a good time. @Thewhitedragon69 is right that you absolutely won't be optimal without Lotus et al - you're giving up all your most busted plays, and you'll have a harder time clawing back into the game when you're losing - but you'll still be able to play and win games of Magic. Access to stuff like Null Rod will do a bit to close the gap between you and the powered players, and you can mess around with cards people don't normally play around in Vintage (Daze, Price of Progress, etc).
I personally believe Eldrazi is the best answer because it synergies well with tomb, city, null rod, and Cotv. Accepting that you do not want to play that my gut tells me that some sort of Mono red blood moon deck is the way to go.
For the most part the deck does not want power. The only 2 pieces it really tends to use are lotus and Ruby, but I think an argument could be made that the optimal list would not play them over SSG or even ESG because they have no counter synergy with Null rod or chalice. I have no idea what that list even looks like now day but I would consider starting out getting the following cards and trying some stuff out
4 Blood Moon
4 Simian Spirit guide
4 Ancient Tombs
4 Null rod
1 COTV
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Lightning bolt
4 Light up the stage
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Ricochet Trap
4 Mental Misstep
2-3 city of traitors
X Blood sun
X Damping sphere
X Fiery Confluence
X Abrade
X Vexing Shusher
X Goblin Rabblemaster OR Legion Warboss
X By Force
X Ensnaring Bridge -
Thanks for the deck suggestions. I am leaning more towards Landstill, just of personal preferences, but I will also try out the Mono Red list for sure. Both seem like the easiest decks to adjust into an unpowered deck, Mono Red is it already.
And if someone has an up to date unpowered Delver list I also would be glad about it. Than I have three starting points for tinkering arround whit them and see who it works out for me.
I have to say thank you to you guys again, you were a great help to me
