Platinum players complain, WotC immediately listens and responds

@shawnthehero I find the situation a little frustrating myself, especially back-to-back with the Lodestone restriction and the Judge lawsuit. It makes me feel like the vintage community (and myself) is powerless and unimportant .. but there has to be a better way to make your point than name-calling. Calling the platinum pros basement-dwellers isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

@shawnthehero That's easily the most offensive thing I've read on the new TMD, even ignoring your awful racist political diatribe. I guess the irony of saying you're tired of certain people being associated with Magic while you stoop to name calling, stereotyping, and in general being incredibly impolite was lost on you.


Sorry Andy. I'll aim to make some better posts but I'm fine with just being the one with the unpopular opinions around here. I don't know if they're basement-dweller or not but as you told me once before: Counting on money from magic tournaments is just not a good life strategy. Also, I can't imagine another affordable place to live with that sort of salary.

I also don't know if they cheat or not, but I think it's very probable that some do.

Also, I'm just speaking from the experiences that Ive had personally


Sorry man, I'm just in a different world. Censoring what I put on the Internet is a constant struggle for me.

last edited by Guest

We need to pump the breaks on this thread. I think this thread is what twitter is for in fact.

@shawnthehero it's totally fine to have unpopular opinions on TMD ... I have tons of them ... but when you can't make a point without trashing someone to do it (even if that point is about that person), maybe it wasn't a very good point? People pick up on that, and it makes it hard for people to support you - even if they agree with your unpopular opinion. This really isn't about disagreeing, it's about failing to disagree in a reasonable/classy/persuasive way.

I appreciate that it's difficult for you to censor yourself on the internet. You just have to realize that there are consequences to that - and it's not being banned on TMD, it's having people slowly start to discount things you say, until you've built a bubble around yourself that makes you feel like you're being persecuted for your ideas, when really people can't pay attention long enough to know what your ideas are.

That's not site policy - it's just how people react to this kind of stuff ... the next time you have trouble censoring yourself online, think about what you actually want from the site, and how you can get that.

last edited by Brass Man

No kidding.

"What? Wizards back pedaled from an incredibly unpopular action but still wnot take MY advice to (insert pet issue here)? Those BASTARD PROS!"

Wizards did something nice for 35 or so people. Good on them. Reading something bad into this decision is like condemning a firefighter fire saving lives because they are contributing to over population. Sheesh.

@MaximumCDawg It's just interesting. It speaks to the power that the pros really have comparative to other groups in the magic community. Get the pros on your side, Wizards will follow.

@gkraigher Honestly, while you may have an axe to grind regarding Lodestone's restriction, conflating it with this issue is utterly ridiculous. No, ending professional Magic as we know it, does not affect just 35 players. It destroys the trust of the game's most engaged players with Wizards; it chases its best players from the game; it gives them no hope of sustaining a lifestyle (which is by no means lucrative) of playing the game at its highest level and producing content for the community - and all of that undercuts Wizards' goal of selling packs, which we, the Vintage community, really need to happen if we still want to play our little corner of the game.

Yes, Magic faces strategic challenges in the age of e-sports. No, this was not the way to address them. Honestly, we should be worried about the player base having too little power, not enough, when Wizards handles so many issues so cack-handedly. If you look at Hasbro's 2015 report to shareholders, you'll see the game Magic has grown year-on-year for the past seven years - and yet very little of that profit trickles down to investment into thing the community is clamouring for: be it better remunerated premier play, better coverage or an MTGO fit for the 21st century. It was vital to say no to these cuts - and demand WotC pay more than lip service to the important of community.

Bottom line: Having an elite level of the game helps make us all better Magic players. The game and the business owes a debt of gratitude to players who have taken on the precarious situation of chasing the pro dream and exploring the deepest possibilities of Magic. Without them, Magic would have died in the 1990s, no question. And they continue to do more to sustain the game than a handful of Vintage players griping on TMD.

WotC's R&D dept needs better resources to manage all its formats. And they shouldn't have listened simply to VSL players on Lodestone. But this was a completely separate issue, with broad community support from informed players.

If the pros had such a huge influence over WotC then this decision to cut appearance fees never would have been made in the first place. If anything it shows that the pros have more influence in the broader community than many realised. A lot of ordinary players actually got pretty angry that these (very few) pros suffered a perceived injustice (the changing of the rules mid-season, not necessarily the changes themselves) at the hands of the company.

@Brass-Man This should be in the terms of service for every website.


In no way would this have ended professional magic. The platinum pros still get invitations to all the pro-tours. They still get a free hotel.

A person who qualifies for the first time gets their flight covered. I'd say that's roughly the same cost unless the pro-tour is halfway around the world for you.

The question is, do you really think the platinum pros would stop going to professional events if they didn't get an automatic $3000 for showing up?

I'd say 99% of the time they still would go. I know if I qualified for a pro-tour I certainly would unless some other life event was happening that weekend (good friend's wedding, wife having a baby, etc)

So, with that being said, I am of the opinion nothing would change professionally. These players would still show up and do everything they are already doing.

but that $12000 they get on an annual basis allows them to not have another job. So they can sit around and troll modo 24/7. I don't think that is a net benefit for anyone involved.

Many of these guys write magic articles. You could argue the quality of writing would decrease....but to be fair I'm not overly impressed with the quality of writing to begin with. Many articles are simply videos of a pro drafting. Or a simple breakdown of a deck they found online played by someone else.

What I am saying is, the quality of magic articles already is pretty bad when you boil it down to its roots.

Sometimes, a player comes out with a great article about stubble neuances of the game, or how to manage your emotions, etc. But those are few and far between.

Most of the articles on channelfireball and starcity games are fluff pieces designed to sell cards.

So I find the argument about content disintegration not only false, but completely irrelevant.

So the question is, what changes?

You dream crush a bunch of players who want to live the pro-life.

Who cares.

You resind an implied contract and promise to professional players who are close to or have already qualified for platinum next year....

That is a problem. It's a broken promise on something that could be considered an advertisement.

last edited by gkraigher

@gkraigher said:

You dream crush a bunch of players who want to live the pro-life.

Who cares.

Well, clearly a lot of people did.

@gkraigher While this isn't directed exactly at you, let's set a few things straight. I've listened to forum posters and podcasters toss around words like "WotC promised" Pros money, and they "earned" it. I'm also hearing people say the Pros now get to return to business as usual. Neither of these suggestions are true.

  1. The Pros were never guaranteed anything. Take a look at the Pro Players Club policy statement:

Wizards of the Coast LLC reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to modify any and all prize or award structures, and to substitute any prize or award for another prize or award in its sole discretion.

In other words, nothing was ever promised or earned. Instead, a small handfull of people who enjoy Magic made a calculated bet that WotC would not be changing the program anytime soon, so they dedicated a year to grinding in the hopes of being able to participate in gifts from WotC next year. But, make no mistake, it was just a bet about what WotC might do. They assumed the risk that their work would not pay off -- or they didn't bother to read the Policy.

  1. At the moment, the Pro player gifts have only been reinstated for one year.

Platinum appearance fees will remain unchanged for the 2016-2017 season. This means that any Pro player who earns or has already earned Platinum status during the 2015-2016 season will receive all applicable appearance fees during the 2016-2017 season.

Read together with the prior announcement, this means that the program is still ending, just not until the end of the 2017 season. WotC is promising to think of new ways to improve the Pro experience in the same article, but never rescinds the general ending of the Pro gift program currently in place.

I get annoyed when people muddle those two points because it distracts from the true nature of what's going on. WotC decided it needed to grow personalities on the Pro Tour so spectators were more interested, and they offered reward system to incentivize that. A few high-profile people took advantage of this reward system and made financial bets on it staying in place.

WotC removed it, which was a negative result for those people. The public at large (not just the few pros affected) thought this was mean of WotC or worried about the consequences, and complained. WotC relented and re-established benefits to ensure those who bet on them during 2016 wouldn't have struggled in vain.

All in all, WotC did a kind thing for a small handful of people and showed it does listen to player feedback. These are all great things, and I think it's a good result. But, please, don't muddle the mixture with mis-information. 😞

@vaughnbros said in [Platinum players complain:

@MaximumCDawg It's just interesting. It speaks to the power that the pros really have comparative to other groups in the magic community. Get the pros on your side, Wizards will follow.

That's not fair. It was not just the Pros that complained about this decision. Perhaps it is more accurate for you to say that Pros have a very powerful pulpit on which to shift popular opinion among players, but make no mistake. the player base who knew about the change was generally unhappy with it.

Also, you forget that WotC listens to smaller groups, too. Remember when they tried to issue errata to Reconnaissance? A few people complained, many from this board, and they reacted.

WotC has lots of different groups to try to keep happy - well, at least happy enough to keep buying their product. They try their best. Just because sometimes they do what "the Pros" want does not mean they are in charge or that your voice is not heard.

last edited by MaximumCDawg

So my question becomes how loud do we need to get in order to abolish the reserved list?

@Soly Smashing down mailboxes level?

I guess we really only need a single thread on The Mana Drain anymore. We could title it: "Everything Is The Reserve List: The Thread."

@Soly said:

So my question becomes how loud do we need to get in order to abolish the reserved list?

From the last derail:

@MaximumCDawg said:

(1) Wizards has made and repeatedly doubled-down on a public promise that has encouraged people to rely upon it and spend money. If they went back on that promise now, the company loses public confidence and risks running afoul of promissory estoppel and state trade laws. The fact that the judges are suing, to the extent it's relevant at all, suggest that WotC's fears are justified: people WILL sue them and WILL bring class actions if they are sufficiently angry with WotC policy and WotC exposes itself.

(2) Wizards has no financial incentive to break their promise. Sure, they make money off of reprinting Black Lotus. They also make the same money reprinting Tarmagoyf. Or Duress. There's no reason to risk a lawsuit to make the same money they were making anyway.

(3) Wizards has already implemented two solutions to the Reserve List, and no one gives them credit for it. First, they made Modern, so that at least prospectively this won't be a problem anymore. The more cards they print, the more Modern looks like Legacy or even, yeah, Vintage. Second, they have been aggressively printing new cards that compete with the functions of Vintage cards (look at the diversity in countermagic and creatures in Vintage now compared to 2010). There's room to grow into cards that compete with Duals and Power, but they're working on it. Give them some credit.

This concludes your visit to The Reserve List, off Exit B4 from The Freak'n Point.

last edited by MaximumCDawg

for the record, there's a neat little feature on the software - "Reply as Topic". There's a dropdown arrow next to the reply button which gives you that option. (I know it's not very obvious). If you're going to be posting in a thread that is not about the reserved list, or a restriction, or counterfeits - and one of those words is in your post, STRONGLY consider using Reply as Topic instead of responding inline. I don't mind people who are passionate about topics, and sometimes there is a reasonable link between them, but it's tough to have new conversations when every thread ends up about the same subjects over and over again

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