November 26 Banned & Restricted Announcement

Agree with that decision, no deck is dominant or problematic at the moment.

I agree with the decision.

Here are the criticisms I've heard:

  1. The format is stale, and needs to be 'shaken' up.

  2. PO is non-interactive, and the format's game play is overall poor.

I don't think either criticism has merit.

First of all, this is Vintage - we don't support restrictions just to "shake up" the format. We play this format because it evolves slowly.

I like stale formats, and so do other players, otherwise Old School wouldn't be so popular right now.

As for the second criticism, I think it's empirically unwarranted. Shops v. PO is probably the only non-interactive match in the format (game 1s against Dredge are not a "match," but are also non-interactive). Every other match right now is loaded to bear with interactivity and intense decision making.

This was the correct decision, despite the incessant complaining. Just looking at the last few years, people have never stopped complaining about something. First it was Chalice, then it was Lodestone, then it was Gush, then it was Mentor, now it's PO/Misstep, and possibly Shops. People just love to complain, but the format is objectively miles better than its been in years.

Totally agree with the decision and comments. It kinda sucks to lose to PO. But I also think it sucks to lose to prison draw from shops, from a T1 mentor with jeskai mentor, to a T2 kill from survival, to lots of things. PO isn't even the best deck in the meta anymore, but people will still complain. I see lots of good decks being created (which are kinda ramifications of existing ones, but still), even survival has been back. We even have Assassin's Trophy which hasn't been used to it's potential yet. If there's something too dominant, first there's the attemp to adapt, and if there's no way even to adapt to it, then maybe something should be banned. But I feel like the requests for ban are on it's low lately. Or maybe I'm not paying attention.

If people think the format is stale, I'm happy to see an unrestriction or two. There are plenty of cards that can be unrestricted.

With regards to restrictions, the top 8 at champs was one of the most diverse top 8s of the past few years. We've finally pulled away from the duopoly of Shops vs Xerox, and had SIX distinct archetypes in the top 8. That was amazing. The last time we had a comparable amount of diversity in the top 8 was 2013 (with 7 different archetypes in the top 8). I don't think any EW lately has had such diversity in the top 8, but feel free to correct me, I only looked briefly.

Complaints apparently always start up if a combo deck takes up a significant amount of the metagame. Seemingly, people don't like playing against combo decks. Yes, Shops vs PO is uninteractive, but so is Shops vs DPS, and Shops vs most combo decks, for that matter.

last edited by Hrishi

Great. I think the metagame is very diverse and balanced at the moment. I would, however, like to see a few cards come off the restricted list. I think there's some very safe unrestrictions.

@Hrishi I agree. No need to ban anything but I'd like them to take some stuff off.

Mind's Desire remains restricted while Outcome is free.

Memory Jar for some reason is restricted, even though Tinker (Rightfully) is.

Windfall is restricted, for some reason.

Fastbond is restricted, for no reason.

@13nova said in November 26 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

Mind's Desire remains restricted while Outcome is free.

Those cards are comparable.

@thecravenone One is 6 mana and ends the game when it chains into another one. One is 4.

@13nova said in November 26 Banned & Restricted Announcement:

@thecravenone One is 6 mana and ends the game when it chains into another one. One is 4.

I mean I'm not denying what you're saying but one is countered by a simple Pyroblast and one is virtually uncounterable (besides Flusterstorm/MBK). I don't think you're making a fair comparison at all.

last edited by Hrishi

I don't see Mind's Desire vs Paradoxical Outcome being a fair comparison. Mind's Desire requires two additional mana and holding onto the storm-generating mana acceleration prior to the turn its cast. Paradoxical Outcome can do its thing whether the mana acceleration started the turn in play or in hand, making it a more versatile card. While Mind's Desire can't be efficiently Pyroblast'd, there are lines of play where Paradoxical Outcome (the first one, at least) can't be Mindbreak Trap'd. One of them should make a swap, and I honestly believe -R Mind's Desire is the correct direction.

last edited by KillerTofu

What are we even talking about here? How can mind desire beeig restricted is fine while p. Outcone is not?
Im not saying that p. Outcome needs a restriction... no
Im saying mind desire should be free otherwise 4x p.outcome beeing fine makes no sense.

last edited by Megustalabanana

@megustalabanana @13NoVa

PO can be stopped with any counter, Mind's Desire can only be stopped with MindBreak Trap or Fluster (if you have mana available) if opponent is tapped out.

Despite having way different set ups, these two cards are miles away from being comparable...

@peach so because 2 things are different you cant choose one? You cant say wich one you think is better? Idk if they are comparable or not i dont even know how to spell that. I do know when you cast po in the right deck you almost won... and if it chains into another one you just won... what about mind desire? I know is harder to cast... is it harder to counter? Also. Fair enuff. But we all know you win more games by casting po than mind desire.... guess why?good boy!
Also those moxen are better in play tapping for mana than holded in hand waiting the opportunity to be a storm count that makes you win
I dont have to explain you why drop your artifact mana and use it leaving behind the ability to win next turns is better than holding that mana making nothing in your hand till you got the spell count needed to cast them as storm generator... i hope i dont. Do i? No please... i like inteligent debate.

last edited by Megustalabanana

@megustalabanana and i repeat.... i dont want po restriction
I am saying it makes no sense people saying po x 4 is fine and mind desire meanwhile should be restricted.... among those 2 po is just the better card.... unrestrict m desire.. and 1 week after that you probably will be restricting p.o.
Just and only after unrestrict m. Desire. Only then we can discuss the po restriction. Right now?is totally ok as a 4 off.
Meanwhile Mind desire sitting in the restricted list is not.

@Megustalabanana First of all you are being extremely rude, and if I knew how I would report you. Second of all I think you are overlooking something extremely important to this discussion, and that is that you cannot have both PO and MD unrestricted at the same time, period. They are both storm cards, one with less potential but less set-up and the other with more potential but more set-up. When you combine the two you have a PO with no set-up chaining into a MD with no set-up either, probably making it the most busted card ever. Even if you do not hit a MD you will likely hit another PO, and then you can probably hit a MD. At his point even with only three artifacts, and assuming you have drawn no more from PO (likely statistically impossible) then your storm is already at least 8 and you have drawn at least 6 cards. I am not saying you are right or wrong, and I do not know enough to have an opinion on whether or not PO and/or MD should be unrestricted or restricted but I will say this:

  1. Be respectful or no one will listen to you or take you seriously.
  2. Think carefully about the consequences of each unrestriction and restriction before calling for them.
last edited by Rat3dE

@rat3de not rude.. but EXTREMLY rude... okay. Plus i am beeing disrecpecful.... okay.
How. When. I really hope life treats you well because if you feel like that because of what i said before you do need protection and attention
I wont give you those. Sorry.

Comparing a single Mind's Desire vs Paradoxical Outcome in a vacuum is missing the point. Two Mind's Desires in your deck is more than twice as explosive as a single Desire, because of the potential to chain. PO also chains, but you have to pay for the spells you draw as well as the next PO, and PO is inherently easier to disrupt, so that the game ending after the first resolution is not nearly as much of a certainty.

Windfall is deceptively potent on the play in a deck with fast mana, as you effectively start the game with a bunch of free permanents while your opponent gets a shuffled hand with no option to mulligan. I do agree there's little point keeping Memory Jar on the list, or Fastbond (while Gush remains restricted and Misstep unrestricted).

last edited by evouga

Alright, I don't think we've gotten out of hand yet but let's step back for a second before things escalate.

First off:

@Rat3dE said:
if I knew how I would report you.

If you need to in the future, while you're logged in there's a little "three vertical dots" icon on the lower left of each post, and that opens a dropdown menu with a "Flag this post for Moderation" message. Certainly feel free to use this any time, whether there's a serious problem, or even if things are just getting mildly heated, like they are here. If there's something that needs my immediate attention, you'll probably get a faster response from me via Twitter (@TheManaDrain or @tmdBrassMan).

Moderator hat off and vintage player hat on:
I don't think anyone would disagree that there are both strong parallels and key differences between Mind's Desire and Paradoxical Outcome. There's enough gray area there that there's some room for argument on both sides, but it might help if those arguments are more clearly spelled out (which similarities or differences cause you to come to the conclusion you've come to?).

I think it might be good to remember that two cards being similar hasn't always historically been a reason (WotC has used) to restrict something. While Windfall seems to be on the list because of it's association with Wheel of Fortune, you have the case of Ponder vs Preordain and Sphere of Resistance vs Thorn of Amethyst, both of which seem to be examples of "2 of this card is too few and 8 of this card is too many.

Pragmatically speaking, "will WotC restrict a card" and "why did WotC make a particular restriction decsion about this card" and "should this restriction decision about this card have been made" are qualitatively different questions. New cards don't get restricted unless they cause problems, similarity to existing cards on the list has just never been a catalyst for restriction, just a post-rationalization made after a format imbalance has already appeared.

Rational objective neutral hat off entirely: (I feel like I need to post in different colors or fonts or something)

Mind's Desire feels like a dangerous unrestriction to me, even if I agree that there are many ways in which Paradoxical Outcome is a better card. Desire is interesting in that it's never been unrestricted in Vintage. I think it's the only card for which that's true (correct me if I'm mistaken please) ... we've never seen a Vintage with 4 Desires. It's very possibly harmless, but it feels like a high risk/low reward move to me. Of course as always, that depends on what you want out of the format, which there is no consensus on.

last edited by Brass Man
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