Anti-metagame deck ideas
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I really want a deck that is anti-metagame. I want to punish all of the metagame strategies that are currently the most popular: Fast Mana, Cantrips, artifact mana and heavy card draw.
The Suvival deck does a lot of this but it is a sorcery speed creature deck. I do not really like playing that style of deck. If I were to build something like this on my own it would be an Esper style deck with main deck Leyline of the Void and Stony Silence.
The obvious issues are playing around and through Mental Misstep and Pyroblast/Flusterstorm against Jeskai and blue decks. The other issue is speed, you need to set up fast enough to confront shop and dredge without losing to Paradoxical Outcome.
This puzzle does illustrates the balance of the format but it also illuminates the frustration of the format.
I wanted to play discard spells to even things out but this is not a good strategy. Main deck graveyard hate is descent against a good portion of the meta-game but depending on it is also difficult as a strategy.
I'm looking for ideas to help brew something up.
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Perhaps take a look at this deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-greenless-control#paper
It's a shame that you don't like playing creature decks though, as a meta like the one you described would be pretty easy to beat with a white based hatebear deck or Eldrazi.
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@griselbrother I just noticed that and I do like it a lot. It is similar to a deck I am brewing with Bob and Aminatou. I think Cavern of Souls is underplayed right now so this is some inspiration.
@ChubbyRain do you have any comments about the deck?
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IMO it's not possible to build a deck that hates out all 5 of the major archetypes.
A friend of mine just played WB Hatebears to some success; it has game against PO and dredge, but it feels weak to Shops. It will be in the Team Serious tournament report that will be up on TMD today.
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@moorebrother1 I was actually thinking that a 3 or 4 color Zur the Enchanter deck would be quite fun, unexpected and maybe even decent in the meta. I was thinking you could make it B/W/U or W/Ubg. Depending on your build you could go for a toolbox type build, a control build or some strange aggro/storm build.
In black you have:
Necropotence if you are playing a storm build.
Phyrexian Arena
BitterblossomIn green you have:
Sylvan Library
FastbondIn white you have:
Stony Silence
Rest in Peace
Ghostly PrisonIn blue you have:
Search for Azcanta
Mystic Remora
Energy Flux
PropagandaI think that if you build a B/U/W Xerox toolbox/control list with one or two Cavern of Souls to get Zur out, it could have a lot of potential. You would have game against nearly every deck G1 because of the white enchantments, and your matchups just get stronger as you side out the bad stuff, and side in strong stuff. I think your only tough matchup would be storm or PO and that could be fixed with Aura of Silence in the SB with Stony Silence and Mystic Remora buying you plenty of time. I think the hardest part would be getting Zur out quick enough, but if there is a consistent way to do it then I think it has potential. Let me know what you guys think.
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Consider that the broader/more diverse a field is, the worse a "metagamey" deck is going to do. (three decks are three times as hard to prepare for as one, of course). Unfortunately/Fortunately, in my opinion the format is at an all-time diversity peak at the top tiers, which means I'd wager to guess that a metagame-style deck has never been worse.
But not all is lost.
@moorebrother1 said in Anti-metagame deck ideas:
Fast Mana, Cantrips, artifact mana and heavy card draw
So I think this is only a fraction of the meta (this list ignores Dredge and doesn't particularly address the strengths of Workshops or Oath), but I think you can build a deck that attacks these things.
I think there are two natural places to look
BUG / Team Leovold which runs Null Rod and Leovold, Emissary of Tress]] to stop cantrips and draw directly.
White Eldrazi with [[Null Rod]]/[[Stony Silence]] and [[Thalia, Guardian of Thraben]] to indirectly make cantrips and draw spells unprofitable.
Given your dislike of creatures, White Eldrazi is probably a bad fit. BUG lists can be creature heavy, but the deck is still very controlling and the creatures largely serve as utility, you might like it.
Some less mainstream ideas:
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[[Counterbalance]]/[[Sensei's Divining Top]] would clean up cantrips pretty handily, but is possibly quite slow and doesn't play nice with [[Null Rod]].
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2 Card Monte (the [[Leyline of the Void]]/[[Helm of Obedience]] combo deck) maindecks Leyline and can probably race a Workshop deck, but again, no [[Null Rod]]
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[[Spirit of the Labrynth]] is like a Leovold with a more forgiving casting cost. Playing [[Fact or Fiction]] or [[Gifts Ungiven]] with a Spirit in play is probably a lot of fun.
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[[Gorilla Shaman]] doesn't stop Moxes from accelerating like a [[Null Rod]] does, but is really quite good at nerfing a [[Paradoxical Outcome]].
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@brass-man I have toyed with counterbalance + top, I find the diverse range if cmc, especially in shops with their x spells, to be hard to stay prepared for. Did you have a list you have tested? Would love to get CB playable!
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Perhaps a Modern Vintage "The Deck" is in order?
Many millennia ago, @Smmenen , walked us through his process of building his "The Deck"...I can't find the link at this moment but if someone can help with that, it'd be great. Otherwise, soon as I can find it I will post it here.
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@ten-ten said in Anti-metagame deck ideas:
Perhaps a Modern Vintage "The Deck" is in order?
Many millennia ago, @Smmenen , walked us through his process of building his "The Deck"...I can't find the link at this moment but if someone can help with that, it'd be great. Otherwise, soon as I can find it I will post it here.
Are you talking about this? http://www.vintagemagic.com/blog/old-school-magic-chapter-2-the-history-of-the-deck/
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@smmenen much older. I believe it's in the archives
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I was thinking more of like a Bob deck. Dark Confidant is one of those cards that I hated for a long time but now looks good. The meta-game is not nearly as fast as people make it out to be. Yes, decks can explode all over you but that is Vintage. I am looking at a Bob deck that can work in this meta.
I am also working on an insane fast 5 color deck that is just all of the good cards. It is a similar idea to Paradoxical Oath with Aetherflux Reservoir and Paradox Engine.
I want to be more anti meta game but fun.
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@moorebrother1 I believe the issue with Bob is shops. You said that it would be a five color deck, and I think you would get destroyed by shops through their mana denial and life loss. Just my two cents.
"Pitch Dredge is the worst thing to happen to Vintage this decade." - 2015 Vintage Champion Brian Kelly
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@rat3de I have been helping my brother prep for Eternal Weekend and it brought me back to when I prepped for SCG Con. The issue with saying deck A will just wreck deck B is that with the current metagame no deck is safe.
I am partial to Paradoxical decks when playing in large events because I feel like I always have a chance based on my style and ability. With some practice, I can could play Jeskai or Shop or even Dredge. All of these deck have a good shot at just winning.
The idea of an anti-metagame deck is either a deck that ignores the metagame or hates on the metagame. The Survival deck and Eldrazi decks play in the metagame soft spots and Storm decks play in the ignore the meta and just try to win.
I guess it just comes down to having fun at some point and losing is never fun but it throwing something out there can be fun.
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@moorebrother1 I understand I think that is really cool. Although for a Bob deck, I think that your points annul themselves. Bob is a very good card, but in a metagame deck it will not work great because of things like shops and anti-meta decks. Now in an anti-meta deck I think you would have a very hard time making it viable because it would be to slow to ignore the meta and not effective enough on hating the meta. Though I do believe that B/W humans may be the exception to this as it is relatively fast and has good SB options, and I am sure that someone could build a viable deck in the current meta with Bob in it, I just think that it would be hard and would probably look pretty different from other decks today. An example of this might be @ChubbyRain's Kaya Kontrol deck, although I do not know if the shell would support it.
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@smmenen said in Anti-metagame deck ideas:
@ten-ten said in Anti-metagame deck ideas:
Perhaps a Modern Vintage "The Deck" is in order?
Many millennia ago, @Smmenen , walked us through his process of building his "The Deck"...I can't find the link at this moment but if someone can help with that, it'd be great. Otherwise, soon as I can find it I will post it here.
Are you talking about this? http://www.vintagemagic.com/blog/old-school-magic-chapter-2-the-history-of-the-deck/
I think they are after the one on SCG where you talk about making "the deck" to beat deck X then finding common cards and ending up with a meta'ed "The Deck". Patrick Chapin had a "the Deck" at the time that he played at gen con around then.
Edit:
here it is http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18454_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Return_of_The_Deck.html -
What about a list that looks something like this?
Land (20) 1 Cavern of Souls 1 Flooded Strand 1 Island 1 Library of Alexandria 4 Mana Confluence 1 Misty Rainforest 1 Polluted Delta 1 Scalding Tarn 1 Strip Mine 1 Tropical Island 1 Tundra 1 Underground Sea 1 Volcanic Island 4 Wasteland Creature (7) 1 Blightsteel Colossus 2 Containment Priest 1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation 1 Ramunap Excavator 2 Snapcaster Mage Instant (15) 1 Ancestral Recall 2 Ancient Grudge 1 Brainstorm 1 Dig Through Time 1 Flusterstorm 4 Force of Will 2 Mental Misstep 1 Mindbreak Trap 1 Pyroblast 1 Red Elemental Blast Sorcery (5) 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Merchant Scroll 1 Ponder 1 Tinker 1 Treasure Cruise Enchantment (3) 2 Stony Silence 1 Sylvan Library Artifact (7) 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Sol Ring Planeswalker (3) 3 Dack Fayden Sideboard (15) 2 Containment Priest 3 Energy Flux 2 Fragmentize 1 Karakas 1 Karn, Scion of Urza 3 Rest in Peace 2 Stony Silence 1 Swords to PlowsharesI just threw this list together in roughly five minutes but is this similar to what you are looking for?
Edit: You could probably try to find room for a Balance in the MD or SB and a few Preordain and a Time Walk in the MD.
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just want to point out that if you're running tinker/bsc you absolutely need to run time walk. time walk is also a common DT target.
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@john-cox thank you. That's the one.
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@mediumsteve I know, I realized after that I should have included it among other things. I just threw the list together in about five minutes so their is a lot of dissynergy and probably suboptimal cars choices.
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You might have an interest in my RUG "Hate Cards" deck I've been playing for the past ~6 months or so. Has been doing decently well at local paper events. Current list:
Creature 3 Tarmogoyf 1 Snapcaster Mage 1 Sulfur Elemental Instant 1 Ancestral Recall 1 Brainstorm 2 Lightning Bolt 2 Ancient Grudge 1 Dig Through Time 4 Mental Misstep 4 Force of Will 2 Pyroblast 1 Flusterstorm Sorcery 1 Ponder 2 Life from the Loam 1 Time Walk Enchantment 1 Fastbond 1 Sylvan Library Planeswalker 3 Dack Fayden 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor 1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance Artifact 2 Null Rod 1 Chalice of the Void 1 Black Lotus 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald Land 1 Library of Alexandria 1 Strip Mine 4 Wasteland 4 Wooded Foothills 3 Misty Rainforest 3 Volcanic Island 2 Tropical Island 1 Taiga Sideboard: 4 Grafdigger’s Cage 1 Tormod’s Crypt 2 Energy Flux 1 Pulverize 2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 1 Pyroblast 1 Nature’s Claim 1 Snapcaster Mage 2 Pyrostatic PillarGoal of the deck is to have a wide range of avenues to attack your opponent from, depending on the matchup. Sometimes I win via Loam+Wasteland locking people out, sometimes I win from card advantage/selection from early Dack or either Library, sometimes it’s from playing a Tarmogoyf on turn 1 and protecting it for 5 turns delver-style, sometimes it’s just slamming Null Rod on turn 1. Makes sideboarding against the deck very hard (do I board in crypts to fight the loams? Dismembers to fight the tarmogoyfs? Spyglasses for the planeswalkers?).
FAQ I've been asked about card inclusions:
Taiga – I personally would never cut the Taiga. Very often you’ll have hands such as: Loam/Wasteland/Fetch/Pyroblast/Misstep/Force/Dack, and you’ll want to have a red source for a t1 pyroblast and a green source for a t2 loam. Also good to have an extra mountain for SB Pulverize.
Fastbond – Pet card, but has its uses in providing a "combo kill" with Loam or just acceleration against shops.
Tarmogoyf – In the ‘ways to win the game’ department (consisting of Tarmo, Pyromancer, Snapcaster, and Hydra), I like Tarmogoyf the best as he’s immune to lightning bolt/ballista, and comes down already big and ready to wall shops’ artifacts/hollow one/gurmag. If people switch off of lightning bolts and more towards StPs, perhaps Pyromancer might be worth considering. However, this deck is nowhere near Xerox-y enough to make a real token army, and not playing ‘go-wide’ opens up better sideboard options against shops/fish/dredge.
Chandra – This deck takes a while to win (often ‘wins’ by locking someone out, either hard or soft), so having a PW that directly wins the game by herself and is immune to bolt/pyro is very useful.
Treasure Cruise – It might seem like hearsay for a triple Dack Fayden and dredge deck to not play both delve spells but this deck gains a lot of merit from keeping its GY intact. Tarmogoyf gets better with a full-er GY, Loam asks to not be delved as well as discourages lands from being delved, Snapcaster also benefits from keeping sorceries and instants. All this combined make it actually hard to find 6 or 7 cards in the GY you want to get rid of. Thus I stuck with just Dig as its better at finding the right disruptive piece for my opponent’s deck.
Punishing Fire – Way too slow and the manabase cannot support both Groves and Wastelands.
Nature’s Claim – While most GY hate is garbage to average against this deck, Rest in Peace is a back breaker. Need at least 1 answer to it in the 75.
vs PO: Rod/Chalice/Pillar, combined with 2x MD Ancient Grudge and 3 Pyroblasts. If you can counter/dodge the mentor, you should be fine in this MU.
vs Shops: G1 Deny their mana via wasteland and rod along with either walling up behind goyf or dack or killing their stuff with bolts and grudges. G2-3 Shop can't pay for Tabernacle so if you get this out plus 1 other piece of disruption (rod/goyf/chalice0) you've usually won. If they try to sphere lock you, you're fine with this deck since it has 23 mana sources, and pulverize + loam can help get under or over the spheres.
vs UR/URg/URw: Their manabase is surprisingly garbage for a 2 color deck, usually only playing 1 island. Wasteland them out while Tarmogoyf walls snapcaster/pyromancer (they can't kill it since all they have is bolt/pyroblast). Post board they still can't kill tarmogoyf and now additionally get wrecked by tabernacle.
vs UWr: Hardest MU since they play plow and usually 2+ basics. Matchup comes down to "protect the tarmogoyf/pyrostatic pillar" as they will out CA you eventually.
vs Oath: If they haven't resolved an Oath by turn 3 you win. Their mana base is terrible and their deck is filled with expensive cards. Board out all your creatures, keep in all the mana denial (even rods), play "protect the cage" and win with spirits. I have never lost to this deck
vs Dredge: G1 is impossible, G2-3 would be awful if they just sideboarded 4 claims but they also now cut more GY stuff for Hollow Ones and Gurmags, which Tarmogoyf, Tabernacle and Dack can easily deal with.
vs Survival: Point forces at survival and wastelands at bazaars and goyf checks the rest. Post board they heavily struggle with rod/tabernacle/wasteland
