@dshin I think the idea of playing around counterspells helps tremendously with a bluff mechanic.
Spot removal use to be decent, but as most of the playable creatures today have etb/ltb effects the damage is already lasting even though the threat is removed. Countering on the stack is the only way to deal with these in favorable way (not even favorable if it's force of will).
I think counterspells are interactive in that both players act/react, but interactivity is NOT what most anti-blue players gripe about. What they really mean when they say "Counterspells are uninteractive" is "When my opponent plays counterspells, I don't feel like I'm even in the game." There are many games vs control that go like so:
Player A - plays land, mox, 1cmc spell
Player B - missteps
Player B - plays land, ponder
Player A - plays land, spell
Player B - FoWs
Player B - plays land, mox, ancestral self
Player A - plays land, plays bigger spell
Player B - mana drain
Player B - plays land, Jace TMS, brainstorms
Player A - plays land, casts spell (not a threat with Jace), resolves, casts real threat
Player B - Gush, FoW
Player B - mox, tinker for BSC, brainstorms with Jace, time walk.
In that game, Player A hangs around a few turns and there's plenty of interaction. In reality, Player B was solitairing and Player A was basically draw/land/pass for all intents and purposes. Player A may well have never sat down at the table and would have been as much "in the game."
It is possible that Vintage suffers a little from the lack of nuances in the category of good counter/destroy spells making the strategies a little stale.
I think one of the card with the most nuances & subtilities (ie: interactive) in that category might be Mindbreak Trap:
- Its free-to-cast condition means it challenges both players playskills & deckbuilding
- It exiles rather than counter, introducing another layer in a universe full of counterwars, recurring spells, delving, ...
- It is still playable mid & late game under its full casting cost
- It can be easily interacted with (no storm, no spilt second, ...)
So the counterargument is probably to say that if a card has too many nuances/conditions then it has been too balanced by R&D so probably not Vintage/Powerful enough. I’m more to say that R&D doesn’t like printing too many of these cards because it makes the game complicated/hard for new players. For us, not having access to such cards make the game stale & the strategies limited
moorebrother1 last edited by moorebrother1
I had a set of very intense games last night and I was not the best sportsman while playing through several counter wars. I was playing Blue Moon and he was playing Jeskai. The game starts as usual with Mental Misstep and there were just countless counter battles from there.
There are a lot of counters flying back and forth and he sticks a Dack and a Jace but I stick a Pyromancer and Snapcaster. The games can be called interactive but I became very irritated with pace and the flow of the game.
Post side board we were both way over the top with counterspells and some removal, and the pace of the counter war intensified and we go to game 3.
In game 3, I force myself to stay focused and I we are both just drawing a ton of cards to build critical mass and I resolve a Pyromancer and again I will have lethal in a turn. We have a counter battle that went about 12 deep on the stack.
I admit that I was complaining in the chat, the game was intense and I guess interactive. I absolutely hated playing it. I won in the end because of timing and sequencing and a little luck but I hated it.
I owe that guy an apology for complaining but this match proved to me that there are just too many counters in Vintage.
BandsWithOthers last edited by
In reality, Player B was solitairing and Player A was basically draw/land/pass for all intents and purposes. Player A may well have never sat down at the table and would have been as much "in the game."
I think the issue is not so much "Interactivity" which feels like a very squishy concept, as it is that players, especially people who enjoy the other eternal formats, (at least in my experience, please feel free to flame me out on this) have a distaste for playing against Unfair, Linear strategies which tend to crop up in Vintage. This is true, despite the fact that being able to execute/thwart degenerate combos is one of the things that brings us to the format in the first place. This in turn, I think in general requires a discussion of Vintage hedonics vis a vis learning to stop worrying and love Misstep '-)
For me, it's a matter of being able to find a certain amount of (perverse?) enjoyment in seeing my opponents execute insane, game winning plays, or chain together pitch perfect responses to my threats, even if they make me want to roll my eyes and puke sometimes.
Enjoying the match against Blue Control, just like any other archetype that is trying to lock you out or just outrace you, also requires a certain enjoyment of the cat and mouse game played in game two as you aggressively mulligan for a sphere, or a null rod, or a cage, or hand disruption, or your own suite of counter tech in the mirror.
For every game on Blue that I've actually had the perfect answer to every threat (because, ahem, sure, happens all the time ), I've had an equally frustrating one where I've been sphered out, wasted/rodded into oblivion, overrun by zombies or simply brutally outplayed by a control opponent who correctly sequences and times counters to win incremental advantage.
But I still work to enjoy even THAT game. It sounds more than a little silly/esoteric, but in some sense developing what some might call a "healthy outlook" on counterspells is about loving ALL of the parts of the format, even the ones that you don't like very much.
vaughnbros last edited by
In my opinion, meaningful decisions beyond the mulligan step for both players is what is important, not necessarily interactivity.
I don't think counterspells are the real issue, but the end result of the underlying issue with deck manipulation. If you look at "counterspell" decks prior to all of the 1 mana brainstorm/ponder/preordain/dig (and sometimes snapcaster to do it again), they really needed regularly dedicated a lot more slots to counterspells in order to ensure they could always have a counter ready. Randy Buehler's old Draw-Go list had 21 counterspells. The typical vintage landstill (my take for the current most traditional counterspell deck) has 11-13 depending on if they run pyroblast. With all the extra deck manipulation, the blue mage can consistently have countermagic with fewer actual slots taken up
This is in my opinion part of the reason for the "uncounterable" cards we have gotten. These cards come with their own cost. Cavern is great as long as you can use the colored mana to cast your creature. Often, it is on "Human" because you needed to cast that Thalia but then your Eldrazi no longer have that fail safe (for example). Abrupt decay is great but is fairly limited both by color and by targeting restrictions. No one really cares about any of the other uncounterable spells.
I feel these uncounterable cards were in part plays to force interaction other than countering spells.
Now here's the real question.
How do you fellas feel about cutting FoW in blue mirrors? Do you gain enough of an advantage to justify losing to a turn one play (eg. Mentor)?
moorebrother1 last edited by
@dunnydee Are there enough threats to pull that off? If you are playing Xerox you do not have enough threats to ditch the FOWs, and you'll just be drowned by counter magic.
@moorebrother1 I'm not sure about threats but I can definitely see the case for boarding in more spells like removal and more efficient counterspells like flusterstorm. Don't get me wrong FoW is fantastic in the mirror but I don't know how much I'd like to 2 for 1 myself against a blue player.
Disclaimer I have very little experience on xerox and other blue decks.
moorebrother1 last edited by moorebrother1
@dunnydee If you have a deck with more threats or disruption that is a good strategy. The issue with Xerox v Xerox is not just card advantage but tempo and card draw. If someone can get a Jace or Dack through and you cannot answer it, then you will lose in 2 turns to their tempo.
If you are on Oath or PO then losing a FOW is not the worst idea depending on how you manage the board. If I'm on Oath and board in 2 uncounterable creatures then I may drop an FOW. If I'm on PO and I bring in 3 defense grid then I may drop an FOW, but that is very situational.