@garbageaggro

never thought of that, very interesting.

The extra card is a pain and it gives you 2 extra dead draws, Deep Analysis isn't a fully dead draw because you can cast it but it could well turn out you're way is a slightly better way of executing the combo.

@garbageaggro this also reanimates all the hermit druids for extra therapy action if necessary.

@garbageaggro Actually an even better way is to have the Angel of Glory's Rise Lab man and Snapcaster, Then you don't have an extra dead card and the snap casts the Git probe in your yard. In fact I think that is probably the way to do it. Big advantage to this is snap is most certainly not a dead draw.

Doesn't that lose to onboard removal? Something like ballista on 2, not super uncommon. That is one of the benefits of azami, you get to have a back up chance of winning.

@garbageaggro sure but that's pretty much the only onboard removal that can interact , I wouldn't think it's worth a dead draw but that just comes down to opinion. Game 1 vs aggro shops is tough anyway, wouldn't sacrifice a dead card to make one match up slightly better in a very specific situation

Just my 2 cents.

I played Hermit Druid in Dredge for about a year or so (I did a lot of testing with more "traditional" hermit druid lists like this one to draw inspiration). The best package there was definitely the Angel + Azami + Maniac because it avoided needing to have mana post return, and it could survive at least 1 copy of spot removal post combo (although with your creature configuration, you might struggle to overcome a well timed Swords during your post-Hermit Druid Cabal Therapy).

I'm not quite so sure about this sideboard transformation. You'd still have trouble overcoming a Containment Priest, and it really hurts the cohesiveness of the deck as the Show and Tell combo isn't really using anything from the main deck. In fact, Emrakul even prevents you from using the "double combo" boarding strategy that is exceptional against hard control decks and faster combo, like Dredge/Storm/Landstill/ect. I think the deck would benefit a lot from a combo that attacks from a different axes, or putting cards in the board that help you be a better control deck.

I would also drop the preordains and one therapy for green sun's zenith, I played a list for a while and the extra acceleration + warm body was nice and getting another 4 virtual hermits was nice too. The sideboard I used with that was show+tell/Natural order -> progenitus.

last edited by John Cox

@john-cox I've tested it with the green suns I didn't like it it's a bit too expensive.

@vaughnbros

cheers for the feedback.

You never need to survive spot removal because your therapies take care of it. Activate the Druid, you have all the therapies in the yard then therapy your opponent as many times as is necessary so there is no well timed swords and if they have a swords they'll point it at the druid before you activate it.

Containment Priest is the only slight issue but you have Abrupt Decays & Show & Tell Omniscience which does a great job of overcoming it. The problem with a double combo strategy is that you then have to put anti graveyard hate cards into your sideboard, also that misses the main point, the benefit is that you make their graveyard hate dead so keeping your combo in doesn't really help anything.

I have tried several transformation packages and Show and Tell has proven to be the best, The deck is still very good post board.

But I have the benefit of having played this list a A LOT. however the Angel is a great angle I just didn't think of but stil not convinced of Azami over Snap.

The reason btw there is no snaps in the main of the list is because it's a graveyard related card and when you transform you want to get rid of all of them.

@j-b-e

The scenario where spot removal kills you is this (you have at least 1 bridge exiled/in hand or you've drawn a Narcomoeba reducing your total available creature count):

  1. Activate Druid
  2. Narcomoeba(s) hit the yard.
  3. You Therapy.
  4. Opponent hits either Druid or a Narcomoeba with Swords.
  5. You now have less than 3 creatures and can't Dread Return.

@vaughnbros Yup that would kill you but I don't think you can build a deck for every possible scenario. In that scenario the correct play is to swords the druid before he can activate anyway, unless your opponent knows the exact configuration of your list and has probed to see you have a stranded bridge, it just can't be worth an extra dead card for something that would only happen due to your opponent playing incorrectly and not swordsing the druid before activation.

@j-b-e

You'd be surprised how many people will let you go through with a costly combo to try to end a game. I've definitely had it happen to me before so just a scenario to keep in mind. I've seen the same thing happens with Necro+Doomsday where some players will let the card resolve despite having an answer to it.

@vaughnbros
In your scenario, I think you still just have enough because you're getting 2 zombie tokens off each therapy so they need 2 swords.

@structuremole

Only if you have both bridges, and both Narcomoebas. Otherwise, you can never get back to 3 creatures after playing the Therapy.

Scenario 1 (1 Narc + 1 Druid+2 Bridge):
Sac Druid,
2 zombies on the stack,
they swords Narc,
Left with 2 Zombies.

Scenario 2 (2 Narc+Druid+1 Bridge):
Sac Druid,
2 Zombies on the stack,
They swords Narc,
Left with 1 Zombie + 1 Narc

@vaughnbros It just never really comes up. much rather have one less dead card.

@j-b-e I have a question: so far your posts seem to follow the same general program- “I have this really great brew/tweak to an existing archetype, it’s the best! Please give me feedback.” Followed by you telling everyone their feedback is wrong. If you have a really good pile of 75 and you have results to back up your list what feedback are you looking for? Compliments?

Additionally, I do have feedback. Are you positive including DRS in the main and transitioning into a normal BUG Leo control deck post sideboard isn’t better than trying to jam a combo susceptible to counterspells, removal, and Cage/Priest (that most people have access to and want against your main plan anyhow?)

last edited by wfain

@wfain

I'm new to TMD and just put up 2 lists I was pretty happy with, actually have got good feedback on ways to improve both the lists and have made changes. I won't post another list anyway.

Yeah DRS into a normal BUG Leo could be the way to go what would you suggest?

The combo isn't susceptible to Cage only to Containment Priest but yeah I'll try a control transformation.

@j-b-e I think you could probably just have some traditional sideboard cards? Leyline and Energy Flux? Along with 2 Leo, a Jace, and whatever else?

@j-b-e said in Druid:

I'm new to TMD and just put up 2 lists I was pretty happy with, actually have got good feedback on ways to improve both the lists and have made changes. I won't post another list anyway.

You should absolutely feel free to keep posting your lists, it's just that the regulars here tend to gravitate toward tournament players, and when you have a list that's outside the usual (like this one), it helps to be more in depth, and go deeper into the details about what you think is special about the deck. As Carl Sagan says, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence 🙂

I noticed you said

"I think this is just a better deck than Oath of Druids, very similar in that you both want to resolve a 1G spell, but this is a one card combo that is able to transform away from any hate."

But I don't know if I follow. This list is running 7 support cards (Bridge/Dread/Narco/Deep/LabMan) to make the combo work. An Oath deck runs a lot fewer ... and those cards are sometimes things like Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Show and Tell, which you're sideboarding into anyway. It should be a lot EASIER to transform an Oath deck into an OmniTell deck than it is transform a Hermit Druid list into one. Oath is probably the easiest deck to transform into or out of.

On the other hand Hermit Druid never requires a Forbidden Orchard the way Oath of Druids sometimes does, so there's definitely something to explore there.

I know you mentioned you haven't had a chance to play it in a tournament yet. How about testing? How has that gone? What decks/strategies do you seem to have the most trouble with?

@brass-man

Fair I didn't really go into a huge amount of detail and just focused on the fun part of seeing your opponent bring in 8 dead cards.

Yes but I did say I was going out on a limb, it's a bold claim and could well not be true 🙂

As for the dead cards, the only completely dead ones are the bridges, you can cast Dread Return, it doesn't come up, you can cast the narcos & pitch them to FOW, Lab Man again is castable but not ideal and is deep Analysis.

Definitely easier to transform Oath into OmniTell as you said due to the creatures being in the deck already. The advantage with this transform is that you tend to get your opponent way more in the board with the exception of Containment Priest, however you can play around that.

TBH I think the suggestions from this thread of using Angel of Glory's Rise instead of Deep Analysis are good and I've made that change to the list, didn't fully agree on the Azami, sure it gives you slightly more resilience but Snapcaster probe seems a fraction better and limits the number of dead cards.

You can resolve Oath, untap and not win the game whether it be through not having a Forbiden Orchard or simply that Emrakul wont get it done, tbf Griselbrand does 95+% of the time I would imagine.

Testing has gone really well, it's been quite a long process. The original build had Concordant Crossroads, Cavern of Souls and was just a silly turn 1 win or lose deck.

I think that Thoughtseize is really fantastic in Vintage , so many decks have specific cards in them the deck is trying to find, like Oath, PO etc and being able to take the one card they need leaving the rest is pretty strong.PO especially will keep a hand that either has a PO, Tinker, maybe even a draw 7 and nothing else so the Thoughtseizes are pretty great there.

Aggro Shops is an awful match up game 1, Revoker & Ballista are close to unbeatable, improves a lot game 2 as they tend to weaken their deck a bit bringing in graveyard hate, needles etc and also use Revoker/ Needle to name Hermit Druid.

I like the PO matchup, the hand disruption is very good and they have no way to interact with Druid apart from usually a 1 of bounce card. The problem is they don't have a heavy sideboard for graveyard hate usually just some crypts.

Storm - good matchup, hand disruption is king here.
Oath is usually a good matchup made so by the Abrupt decays, but your show and tell plan can be a little less good if you don't have a discard spell and they draw Grisselbrand. Also unless there's Inferno Titan if you play a druid into an oath, your win percentage is not TERRIBLE, but not great either.

I haven't lost to dredge....yet, but their game 1 Leyline is close to unbeatable. The new Abrupt decay coming out of Ravnica looks like it will slot right into this list.

Big fan of your lists btw Brian, try this one out and see what you think 🙂

  • 26
    Posts
  • 4076
    Views