@neo_altoid

Titan is actually just strictly better as a DR target for the following reasons:

1. He can get back things other than land (notably Lotus/LED in Fatestitcher builds).
2. He triggers on attack as well (often relevant when Bridges are gone against a Shops deck).
3. He has vigilance (again relevant against a Shops deck).

The question with this card is whether it can add enough value in other areas that Sun Titan doesn't. Like cast-ability, and pitch-ability.

The other question is if this is better than Sun Titan enough so to warrant more play as Sun Titan is not an overly common play in Dredge anymore.

@chronatog said in [GRN] Molderhulk:

there are no synergies with Ichorid as they trigger on upkeep, and Bloodghast can complicate matters if you need to play a land to cast Molderhulk.

it synergizes fine with ichorid by being a black card. the complication with ghast is optional, as bloodghast's trigger is optional, you can leave them in the yard if you need the creature count and just get them off the trigger from the land molderhulk gets

It seems good, definitely playable. I'll give it a shot when it drops but I feel like I'll miss the versatility of sun titan. There's no better feeling in vintage than barely squeaking out a victory against shops by recurring serenity over and over.

@BlindTherapy keep me posted on the testing fam

I think the question is, is this better than gurmag angler out of the sideboard, the only time I could see it making much of a difference in game one is that you can cast it if you are playing against someone that has main deck hate and it is a black creature. Harder to cast, but you get to keep the cards in your graveyard and get value from the ETB trigger, getting bounced by Jace favors hulk as well and you also get another point of power and toughness. I am imagining this more in sideboard games where you can cast it to get back cabal pit and kill containment priest or get back a bazaar obviously.

@sfielder001 to the degree that i think it's playable, it's as a maindeck card functioning as a dread return target that can also be hardcast, although its hardcast may be worse than things solely dedicated to that role.

@blindtherapy Makes sense. Then is it playable in other versions of dredge besides replacing Sun Titan in fatestitcher dredge? Is it a maindeck card in those decks? And if it is, what do you cut? In most lists there are 8-10 slots that are flexible and I think finding room for two is doable, but 4 sounds extremely difficult. Asking because I can't think of what that would be and looking for input from people who are smarter than me.

@sfielder001

Sun Titan could always have been played in every version of Dredge (assuming you have Bloodghast). This is a "facilitator" type return target that accelerates you into a 2nd game ending dread return target (like Maniac/Kologhan).

The deck has more like 20+ flex spots (which can be seen by all the counterspell slots in a Force of will build). So if you really want to play 4 of these, you can find room.

@vaughnbros If Sun Titan could have been played why wasn't it? In terms of 20+ flex slots, 4 Therapy, 4 bridge, 8-10 dredge creatures, 4 powder, 12-14 lands (assuming this is enough to help reliably cast hulk), 2 dread return, 4 narco, 10-12 graveyard creatures, some combination of ghasts, ichorid and/or amalgam, 1-2 dread return targets other than hulk, even conservatively that leaves maybe 12-14 flex slots so my original post was off. Can you show me a list that has 20+ maindeck flex slots though? And yes with 12-14 slots you can find room, but is it better than what you are already doing with those slots, like unmask, leyline or pitch counters? If we look at the top decks, shops, xerox, outcome and dredge, what matchup do we want hulk in? When I think about that question it leads me to ask another question, does hulk make non fatestitcher versions faster? If the answer is yes then that helps against outcome and the mirror in game 1. I think in fatestitcher dredge this makes a lot of sense as a maindeck and it could easily replace force of will in other versions, as you can play 4 trap and 4 misstep along with with 4 of this guy, but can we play enough lands to make that work? What is the right land count? I also think hulk makes us lean towards playing more anti hate evoke creatures in the sb.

@sfielder001

I think you are misconstruing commonly played, and required to make the deck function.

4 Therapy, 4 bridge, 8-10 dredge creatures, 4 powder, 12-14 lands (assuming this is enough to help reliably cast hulk), 2 dread >return, 10-12 graveyard creatures

Lands are not really a main deck requirement, outside of Bazaar and maybe a couple of Dakmors/Portals (you can cast this card off of Dakmor + Bazaar if you have an active portal). Bridge from Below is not really a requirement. As far as GY creatures, you only really need Bloodghast to make this cards work (and maybe you tell yourself that Narco is just too good to cut?) so really its less slots there as well. The 4th Therapy is "cuttable". Your dredger count is lower than I would go, but that's still a lot of flex in the deck that you can create if you want it.

In terms of my dredger count I am in the 10-12 range, if you assume that none of the lands are salvages then yes that is low. Also since bazaar is required then I think there is a strong case that powder is as well. Also aren't those cards commonly played because they are the best options, so why would you play anything else? What else would you play in those slots to make the deck function? Yes in a broad sense there are not many cards that are "required." I don't think that is the direction I meant for this to go as what cards are required in a broad sense is not what this thread is about. i want to know what we need to make hulk work outside of fatestitcher dredge. You need enough lands and creatures to be able to reliably cast it, is the number of creatures like 23-25 and then how many lands, 14ish? Does this also mean we play less amalgams because the trigger is required? Should we play urborg somewhere in the 75?

@sfielder001 said in [GRN] Molderhulk:

Also aren't those cards commonly played because they are the best options

Are you trying to net deck and just cram 4 copies of this card in (which I highly doubt will be optimal) or are you trying to innovate by playing 4 of this new card? In this instance, discussing Dredge, Bridge from Below is commonly played in Dredge and I honestly think the card is completely sub optimal in every build that I've tried it in lately. So no, I don't think every card that is commonly played is the best option, not even close.

What I'm saying is if you want to build around this card you probably want the following in your dredge deck:
Bazaar+Powder+Dredgers (standard for any dredge deck)
Dakmor Salvage
Riftstone Portal
Bloodghast
Probably Therapies+Returns (assuming your plan A isn't to cast it)

That's it. The rest of the deck you can construct as you see fit. You can start more traditional if you want, but I just wouldn't be afraid to cut cards outside of those at all.

As far as creature count is concerned, you need 7 creatures in your yard to play it for 2 mana. So the more you play the easier it gets. If you have 21 creatures, you have to mill on average 20 cards to get Molderhulk to 2 mana. If you have 28 creatures, you have to mill on average 15 cards to get Molderhulk to 2 mana. If you have only 14 creatures, you have to mill 30 cards to get Molderhulk to 2 mana.

You can hedge there with something like Dryad Arbor might be creature synergy (that is both a creature+a land that can be used to cast it). You can play 4 Hollow Ones that boost your creature count, and are also free to cast with Bazaar. You can play Chewers, Wispmares that help your creature count and remove hate pieces. You can even go all the way to something like Deathrite Shaman that can help color fix you, mana accel you, and contributes to your creature count.

@sfielder001 urborg doesn't help at all with casting a card for GB

@vaughnbros I don't think that jamming 4 of these is going to be optimal and I don't think this card creates any sort of new type of dredge deck in vintage, so I am trying to see what versions this fits in and how/if one should change card choices because it is in the deck. I appreciate your attitude about what cards can be cut and what can't as it is a good reminder that we shouldn't get married to cards especially in an archetype like this.

Took the Hulk for a spin tonight in Fatestitcher variant.

https://twitter.com/volrathxp/status/1052722927899152386

Suffice to say, I'm happy.

@volrathxp you cast hulk the previous turn and it got jacebounced?

@blindtherapy nah I had hulk down for a good portion of the game. Got him to 4 life and he got down jace, bounced it, then I put down Hulk and GGT the following turn.

@volrathxp Did you just replace sun titan with molderhulk? Any chance I could see the list?

I just straight replaced Sun Titan.

This is what I played that night. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1312103#online

@volrathxp I'm assuming city of brass is just for lack of owning mana confluence? given the presence of portal the difference matters