Hi everyone,

So I've been developing this list for a while and I think I've found a deck that has favorable matchups against Shops, PO, AND URw Snapcaster Mentor Control. I'll try to explain a little bit of WHY I think I can claim this, but first, the list:

"Infernal Justice League" a.k.a Junk Hatebears

Land (20):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

Artifact (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

Enchantment (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creature (22):
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

Instant (9):
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (15):
4 Containment Priest
1 Archangel of Thune
3 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
3 Infernal Reckoning
1 Swamp

So how can I claim this to be good vs. these 3 decks? Let's break down each matchup.

1. Paradoxical Outcome - Now when I refer to this matchup I am largely referring to the UWB breed that runs Mentor, TV/Key, Blightsteel and Balance. I believe I beat this deck with some regularity because the full moxen to get a turn 1 Stony Silence/Thalia/Spirit of the Labyrinth and I also have 3 Mental Misstep to catch certain annoying openers off guard. If I can make it to turn 2 at parity I feel as though their deck can't keep up with the torrent of hatebears this deck can deliver. 3 Spirit of the Lab and 4 Thalia is rough for a deck built around 4 preordain, 1 Ponder and 4 Paradoxical Outcome. Kambal is often just the icing on the cake and Stony Silence is just miserable for them. Grand Abolisher is also helpful in making sure your key spells resolve and also at not allowing your opponent to maximize their mana with something like EOT Vampiric Tutor. Dark Confidant is just another "inevitability" card they also have to deal with.

2. Shops - This matchup can be a bit tight and is probably the closest of the 3 but 6 plows after game 1 really help a lot. The fact that 3 of them actually gain YOU life can also be clutch if you are trying to stabilize before you die. Like, sometimes you can Infernal Reckoning a Foundry Inspector and have that be just enough life gained to stabilize in time for a devastating Kataki. Also, Kataki + Stony + Wastelands + Mayor is just a great synergistic set of cheap threats. Anafenza and Deathrite Shaman are also helpful in this matchup.

3. URw Snapcaster Mentor Control - This matchup can also be a bit swingy, but I've found that experience in the matchup really helps. This is where some of the most odd-ball cards in the 75 are at their best. Shalai is brutal for them, as is Archangel of Thune and after game 1 you get both. You can easily set a cavern to angel to make sure either or both resolve and if you can land a Kambal, Archangel gets silly in a long game. Aside from the flashy, "over-the-top" cards you also have an excellent way of interact with their early game in Thalia, Spirit, Bob and Mental Misstep. This is also a matchup where Abrupt Decay can be clutch cause it hits Pyromancers and Mentor and is uncounterable. Cavern of Souls is also hugely relevant in this matchup because you need to out-tempo your opponent and deadening the effect of their Force of Wills early can be crucial to victory. Don't fool yourself though, this matchup can be grindy as hell, and if they happen to be on a larger than normal glut of spot removal they might take it down. But. . . . don't assume that any large amount of spot removal is instant death for Junk Hatebears either. Sometimes you can outmaneuver it with tight timing and cards that interact favorably fighting theirs on the stack like Mental Misstep with a Kambal in play, for example. It's a very complex matchup with a lot of micro-interactions that take a while to get the feel for. Don't worry if you struggle at first to beat URw Mentor. The matchup isn't too bad, and I'd argue, favorable even. Also, be sure to side in those Mayors in this matchup. They are relevant here. Mayor protects Kambal from bolt in that it becomes a meat shield for bolt because Kambal is a 3/4 with Mayor in play.

Anyway, I hope this sparks some conversation, and even, perhaps, some civil debate.

-Storm

last edited by Stormanimagus

So this is intriguing to me, and the notion that a life gaining plow turns around the shops matchup is pretty enticing, but if 6+ plows could beat the deck, why don't the snapcaster + plow + fragmentize decks wreck shops? Is it just that also having creatures is relevant?

I have found the hardest cards in shops to beat for this deck are ballista and anything large, and I know stony silence can help with the ballista, but there are only 3 main and even with 4 post board, it is almost a guarantee that in some games we aren't going to draw that. In those games spot removal is very mediocre against ravager decks, to make that "life gain plow" into "condense two creatures together?

I am not totally against the deck, and the fact that you have had success makes me want to test the matchup, but can you talk a little more about the MU, and specifically whether two basics is sufficient post board? You mention kataki + stony + wastelands + mayor, but i guess i would counter with spheres + wastelands + ballista + any other creatures before you get all that online, since they are running more fast mana and not altogether that high of a curve.

As a corollary, and this is meant to be a thought experiment, what makes this better than White Eldrazi, similar access to disruptive threats, bigger creatures, equivalent access to plows. I am not saying it isn't, but as a former hatebears player, and white eldrazi player, i found that eldrazi was just a version of hatebears where the threats mattered more to my opponent, and that deck has not been at the top tier for awhile now.

All that aside, I am going to throw this together when i get home to test against shops, because if it is even decent, let alone good, I am hopping back on the hatebears train.

@garbageaggro All very good points. I will try to answer them based on my experience. One thing though before that is that I don't think the shop matchup is stellar but I would put it at above 50%.

  1. The Ballista Problem - Sure Stony Silence is helpful but generally the Stony Silence is there for Ravager and Steel Overseer. Nabbing Ballista is just gravy. The way you really beat Ballista, I've found, is that you overload it with targets it must answer and hope they don't have a Ravager to give it insane amounts of counters. You do all this very early in the game by having a glut of 2-drops.

  2. Why 6 plows matters. You are able to follow up a plow on their foundry inspector with bodys that make the game irritating for shops because they are now slowed by their own spheres. The Snapcaster decks that also run a lot of removal do not "just wreck shops" largely cause they run one of the worst cards in the format vs. spheres as a 4-of in Preordain. My list runs no such nonsense. I run Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite Shaman >>>> Preordain as a 1-drop vs. Shops.

  3. This is better than Eldrazi because you have less anti-synergy with Stony Silence (ie you don't play or rely on Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and can survive your own Stony far more readily). You also don't run Sol Lands so this deck weathers a wasteland storm from shops far better than Eldrazi does.

  4. In general, the way you beat shops is early tempo advantage. You also bait their ballista out with something like Bob, and then follow up with Kataki to slow them down or even pick off permanents. Also, one card you didn't mention but is actually decent vs. them is Abrupt Decay. It's a removal spell for most things you care about in their deck INCLUDING Sphere. Also, do not forget that Anafenza is a total house vs. shops because it prevents Modular and Hangarback Thopters from happening. The shops matchups is definitely tighter than the other 2 and if I find it too close for comfort I may add some more cheese for it down the road but for now, I'm ok with where it's at.

-Storm

So i think i am on board with all of this but 3. Specifically "weathering a wasteland storm better" white eldrazi ran between 26 and 30 mana sources, and you run 26. Yes there curve was a bit higher, but all the lands in eldrazi make mana and some of yours don't. I would argue that it is easier to get color screwed against wasteland here, than it is to get "sol land screwed" there.

That all aside, i think the other arguments are pretty compelling. Typically I haven't been a huge fan of AD just because early black and green in these white heavy decks feels tough to me, but I typically ran more basics. The Anafrenza interaction is pretty neat. Like I said I will build it and check it out.

@garbageaggro Abrupt Decay can be awkward for the manabase (though that is where DRS is supposed to shine), but I just don't know of any other card that kills a mentor and can't be countered and also takes out annoying "free wins" like Time Vault. It's a highly versatile card that really has saved the day more times than I can count.

So I have been trying to decide how necessary green is to the list? I think the reasoning might come down to having decay available against oath, but I wanted your feeling about that matchup and how close it is.

@garbageaggro The exile effect from DRS is also huge vs. dredge and academy rector decks. That is a major reason for splashing green.

I have basically always found DRS to be too slow against dredge in game 1s, and haven't played against rector in my meta. But point taken. In those matchups it is also plausible to just play 1 savannah and no other green and just fetch it right?

Howdy, so I am working on a mostly WB version of the deck and I was vacillating on a couple things.

Here is the list with which I am starting :

My thought was that I could maybe get by with Karn over bob as the CA engine, which I think is better, but likely that means I would want to also run a different lock piece in place of stony silence in the main (namely damping sphere). I would also probably run 1 additional revoker at that point.
That may or may not be feasible against shops (read Ballista) any thoughts?

Hi all!

This saturday I took 2nd place at our yearly vintage tourament Hulen "The Cave" Open in Bømlo, Norway. I played a GWRB hate list and it worked so well that I decided to share it with you. This seems like the correct thread to post it in. The 13-man field looked like this:

3x oath, 2x dreadhorde arcanist, BUG Fish, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, Survival, Grixis Control, Paradoxical Outcome, Bomberman and myself.

My list was built to beat ravager and PO and tweaked to beat oath and dredge:

3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
2 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
2 taiga
1 bayou
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 maze of ith

1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 elvish spirit guide

1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six
1 sylvan library
1 engineered plague

4 swords to plowshares
2 mental misstep
4 force of vigor

4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 collector ouphe
2 containment priest
4 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard:
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 bojuka bog
1 ghost quarter
1 forest
2 grafdiggers cage
2 lightning bolt
2 containment priest
2 stony silence
1 tireless tracker
1 dovin, hand of control
1 choke

We played 5 rounds of swiss into semifinals. I wont give much detail. I was drunk the entire tournament and hoped the deck would kinda pilot itself. It worked well until the finals. Anyhow, it went like this:

2-0 against white eldrazi: Very real games, the first game took 40 minutes. I ended up grinding him down. Wrenn and six was a house.

2-0 against paradoxical outcome: My deck is pure hate in this matchup and did its job. I am unsure if I controlled a monastery mentor with engineered plague. Maybe that was in a dream.

2-0 against oath: He resolved Griseldaddy. I had karakas.

2-0 against oath: I think I destroyed oath at least once with force of vigor. I drew containment priest in both games against oath, which make these matches less than representative.

1-2 against bug fish: The deck worked well. In both games I lost, he was down to 2-3 permanents, yet beat me with true-name nemesis.

Semifinals: I went in as first seed, one of the oath plyers came in at second, UR dreadhorde arcanist 3rd and bug fish 4th. The fish player conceded to me because he needed to be elsewhere, so I went straight to the finals.

Finals, against UR dreadhorde arcanist: This was the deck I feared the most in the field. I believe it is a bad matchup pre-board and knew he had blood moon in the sideboard (this was also the reason I put a forest in the side, which ultimately was a bad choice). We played a long game one, where he outplyed me, or I made a few stupid mistakes. I lost game to to turn one blood moon. Having the forest in play did not help.

The maindeck worked exceptionately well. Sideboard is a mess. Ill write a few comments on specific card choices in another post. Gotta go.

Comments on some of the card choices in the GWRB list above:

4 Force of vigor main: I went from 3 to 4 maindeck when I saw how good they are in the deck and after realizing they would be quite relevant in the field. Of the 12 other decks in the meta, they are only weak game 1 against dreadhorde arcanist and BUG fish. The UR arcanist deck I lost to in the final sides in blood moons, so I need to keep all 4 forces in against it. Playing the full playset means putting a premium on green cards in the deck, especially since collector ouphes come out in several match-ups.

4 collector ouphes main: As I mentioned before, I built the deck to beat ravager shops and PO. Against the field I met, 4 ouphe is probably not justified. It is a liability against oath of druids and weak against the "fair" decks. For green-based hate decks in general, I would think they are quite important, since it gives these decks a disruptive 2-drop beater on a power level close to that of Thalia, that pitches to force of vigor.

4 wrenn and six main: Speaking of two-drops that pitch to force of vigor, this card was pretty amazing. Most of the time, it was a functional ramunap excavator that was more resilient to removal. But the option of pinging any target once a round is very relevant. Against oath, it is importantly not a creature, which can build my manabase and/or weaken theirs whilst not activating oath. It can also pluck off spirit tokens after I have wasted their orchard. In the finals, I attacked Thalia into arcanist, bounced Thalia with Karakas after first-strike damage, then played wrenn and six to finish the arcanist off. I shaved a copy once, but never saw the need to cut any more of them. They were well worth the red splash.

4 knights of the reliquary main: This card is arguably too slow for vintage. If it gets to untap, however, it dominates the board. I think it is finally a good vintage card, because force of vigor slows games down to where it becomes effective. I am happy I played four. In the meta this Saturday, I would only side them out/shave copies against grixis control, PO and bomberman.

1 engineered plague main: When looking over sideboard plans against the expected field, I noticed that the engineered plague in the sideboard would come in against about half the field. Against other decks, it has marginal uses that make it decent to use game 1, such as naming "spirit" against oath or "monk" against PO. I was happy about running one in this tourney and will consider doing it again.

2 containment priest main: These are here because I expected 2-3 oath decks and one dredge deck in the meta. On the other hand, I had a hard time finding additional creatures to play. I considered green two-drops like Teeg, Scavenging Ooze and Pridemage and even going to 3 mana for big Thalia or Tireless Tracker. Ultimately, I decided to shy away from these weaker cards and play containment priests, since they are at least situationally powerful. Any ideas here are more than welcome.

Strong sideboard cards: 2 containment priest, 2 grafdiggers cage, 1 tabernacle, 2 stony silence.

Sideboard cards I am happy I ran, even though they could be something else: 1 bojuka bog (no dredge), 1 ghost quarter, 2 lightning bolt, 1 tireless tracker.

Sideborad cards I should not have played: 1 forest, 1 dovin, 1 choke. Choke is win-more with the waste package and wrenn and six. Dovin came in against blue decks, but would have been much stronger as a second sylvan library: Sylvan is cheaper, has a more powerful effect in these match-ups and pitches to force of vigor. The forest was me panicking five minutes before the tourney, when I heard one of the arcanist decks played blood moon in the side. The deck cannot realistically operate against a blood moon anyway, so any green card to pitch to force of vigor would be more effective than the stupid forest. In game two in the final, I had an open fetchland when he played moon turn one. I debated what to do, but went for the basic forest. By the time I had drawn a green card to pitch to force of vigor, he was able to force of will. Meanwhile, the basic forest did nothing.

I will happily respond to questions and/or criticism!

Hi guys!

I realize this thread is completely stale. Ill be happy to get feedback and this is a good place for organizing my thoughts in any case. A year ago, I took my GRWB hate-bear list to Hulen Open. It performed very well and I look to improve on the list for this years tournament.

Expected meta: Oath, 2x UR Arcanist, Jeskai Arcanist, Bug Delver, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, HollowVine, PO Storm, PO Mentor, Bomberman and 2x blue nonsense

My list still intends to beat PO and shops. I consider PO to be the top deck in our meta and this has a very favourable match-up against it:

3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
2 mox diamond

1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six

2 swords to plowshares
1 mental misstep
3 abrupt decay
4 once upon a time
4 force of vigor

4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
3 collector ouphe
3 dark confidant
3 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard:
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 deafening silence
1 swords to plowshares
2 veil of summer
1 abrupt decay
1 sylvan library
4 containment priest
1 collector ouphe
2 plague engineer
1 leovold, emissary of trest

The maindeck runs fairly smoothly. Im happy with the double mox diamond, since coloured mana requirements are pretty steep. 3 abrupt decay in the main is an attempt to shore up the arcanist match-up, which I believe to be the least favourable in the meta. I also appreciate that it can kill mana when appropriate and that it brings my green-count in the main to 25, which is comfortable with 4 force of vigor.

Sideboarding is quite tricky. Whenever I anticipate taking out force of vigor, weaker maindeck cards, such as once upon a time, should go with it. This is my current plan:

Oath: -3 collector ouphe, -3 dark confidant, -3 deathrite shaman, -1 tabernacle (10) +4 containment priest, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares (9)

UR Arcanist (brings in blood moon): -3 collector ouphe, -1 knight of the reliquary, -1 Karakas (5) +1 leovold, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library, +2 plague engineer (7)

Jeskai Arcanist: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -3 collector ouphe (11) +1 leovold, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +1 deafening silence, +2 plague engineer (9)

Bug Delver: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -3 collector ouphe (11) +1 leovold, +1 abrupt decay, +2 veil of summer, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +2 plague engineer (8) Note: Not sure if I can take out force of vigor. Lacking bombs here. Choke could be good.

White Eldrazi: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -3 collector ouphe, -1 thalia (6) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +2 plague engineer (5)

Ravager Shops: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -2 thalia (4) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 collector ouphe, +2 plague engineer (5) Note: The fourth knight would be welcome here, over a plague engineer, for instance.

HollowVine: -3 collector ouphe, -3 abrupt decay, -1 mental misstep, -1 chalice of the void (8) +1 Tabernacle, +4 containment priest, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 plague engineer, +1 leovold (7) Note: Takes my green count to 20, which is problematic.

PO Storm: -3 knight, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (7) +1 collector ouphe, +1 leovold, +1 deafening silence, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library (7)

PO Mentor: -3 knight, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (7) +1 collector ouphe, +1 leovold, +1 deafening silence, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library (7)

Bomberman: -3 knight, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (7) +1 collector ouphe, +1 leovold, +1 deafening silence, +2 veil of summer, +1 sylvan library (7)

A few notes:
-Sylvan library looks like it might belong in the maindeck as a one-of.
-Plague engineer looks like it is not pulling enough weight.
-I would like access to the fourth KotR in the side, against all the creature decks and oath.
-The second tabernacle in the side looks like its not worth it. If I gamble on not playing against actual dredge, I could play another piece that is decent against HollowVine that can also come in in other matches. Surgical extraction comes to mind.
-Similarly, containment priest is chosen as oath hate because it is among the best tools I have access to in case dredge shows up. If there is no dredge, I could consider controlling oath by blowing up oath and lands. A combination of 8 pieces of enchantment destruction and 2 surgical extraction to target the first destroyed oath could be plan a against oath. Plan B is to untap with KotR.

last edited by Recklessmbermage

Update on the list above

Expected meta is still: Oath, 2x UR Arcanist, Jeskai Arcanist, Bug Delver, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, HollowVine, PO Storm, PO Mentor, Bomberman and 2x blue nonsense

3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
2 mox diamond
1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six
2 swords to plowshares
1 mental misstep
3 abrupt decay
4 once upon a time
4 force of vigor
4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 collector ouphe
3 dark confidant
3 knight of the reliquary
Sideboard:
1 swords to plowshares (Comes in in 6 matchups)
2 surgical extraction (Comes in in 6 matchups)
2 pyroblast (Comes in in 7 matchups)
1 abrupt decay (Comes in in 8 matchups)
1 deafening silence (Comes in in 5 matchups)
1 sylvan library (Comes in in 7 matchups)
2 containment priest (Comes in in 1 matchup, assuming no dredge)
2 collector ouphe (Comes in in 4 matchups)
1 elvish reclaimer (Comes in in 6 matchups)
1 scavenging ooze (Comes in in 7 matchups)
1 plague engineer (Comes in in 5 matchups)

Maindeck changes after testing a fair bit against PO Storm and UR Delver, a little bit against other match-ups and thinking a fair bit: -1 collector ouphe, +1 mox ruby. I prefer having the seventh piece of zero-mana acceleration over the narrow hate card. I will consider taking out the ruby in some match-ups, where I would side out ouphe anyways. I think my PO match-up (where ouphe shines the most) is good. This brings my maindeck green-count to 24, which is still ok.

The sideboard has gone through several changes:
-I have tried 2 veil of summer, and found them to be a bad fit in the deck. I will often tap out to play my threats as early as possible, so keeping up green to protect them is not something I want to work too hard to accomplish. Pyroblast is untried still. It can be cast at sorcery speed, which I think is important. It also deals with planeswalkers.
-Against oath and PO, I will side out deathrite shamans and keep knight of the reliquary in, to have a real clock. That means Leovold had to go, because I have too few sources of blue once I side out deathrites.
-I have softened up and widened the dredge hate: Only 2 containment priest, 2 surgical extraction, 1 elvish reclaimer (for the single maindeck tabernacle) and a bonus scavenging ooze that is mainly there for bug and xerox decks, but can do work if the game against dredge goes long. These other cards have applications against a wider field and I dont think I have to rely on containment priest against oath: I just blow up the oath.
-There is still a plague engineer in the side: We have one elf-player that has been on shops the last few years. If he decides to go back to elves, that is a far worse match-up for me. I am also weary of true-name nemesis out of bug. But I consider dropping the last engineer.

In several match-ups where I intend to play force of vigor, I currently drop to 21-22 green cards. That is uncomfortable, and Im looking for moves to change it.

Updated sideboard plan:

Oath: -2 collector ouphe, -2 dark confidant, -3 deathrite shaman, -1 savannah, -1 tabernacle, -1 chalice (10) +2 containment priest, +2 surgical extraction, +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 elvish reclaimer (10) (22 green in library, minimum)

UR Arcanist (brings in blood moon): -2 collector ouphe, -1 Karakas, -1 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -1 mox ruby, -1 swords to plowshares (10) +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 plague engineer, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 scavenging ooze, +2 surgical extraction, +1 deafening silence (10) (21 green in library, minimum)

Jeskai Arcanist: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -2 collector ouphe, -1 mox ruby (11) +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 deafening silence, +1 plague engineer, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 swords to plowshares (10)

Bug Delver: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -2 collector ouphe (10) +1 abrupt decay, +2 pyroblast, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +1 plague engineer, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +2 surgical extraction (10) Note: Not sure if I can take out force of vigor.

White Eldrazi: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -2 collector ouphe, -2 thalia (6) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 plague engineer, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 sylvan library (6) (26 green in library) Note: He may not bring in leylines. I should consider shaving force of vigors.

Ravager Shops: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -3 thalia, -1 abrupt decay (6) +1 swords to plowshares, +2 collector ouphe, +1 plague engineer, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 scavenging ooze (6) (27 green in library)

HollowVine: -2 collector ouphe, -3 abrupt decay, -1 mental misstep, -1 chalice of the void, -1 savannah (8) +2 containment priest, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 plague engineer, +2 surgical extraction (8) (21 green in library, below minimum)

PO Storm: -4 deathrite, -1 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah, -1 Tabernacle (8) +2 collector ouphe, +1 deafening silence, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay (8) (23 green in library)

PO Mentor: -4 deathrite, -3 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (9) +2 collector ouphe, +1 deafening silence, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay (9) (21 green in library, below minimum)

Bomberman: -1 deathrite, -4 wrenn and six, -2 swords to plowshares, -1 Karakas, -1 Taiga, -1 Tabernacle (10) +2 collector ouphe, +1 deafening silence, +2 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 abrupt decay, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze (10) (24 green in library)

@recklessmbermage

Thanks for the contribution.
Isn't Mox Diamond and Ouphe anti-synergy causing issues? I do understand how important it is to have more chance of having 2 mana on turn 1. And I love the synergy with Wrenn.

I have tested Deafening Silence a lot this past month and it is one of the strongest cards you can play against the heavy blue metagame. It actually acts as mana denial early on, and makes it hard for the opponent to quickly get rid of all your bears one by one while also developing their board and hand size.

The new Shepherd making all green spells uncounterable could be an interesting card in this list. Have you considered it?

Thanks for chiming in old friend!

Mox diamond can of course be a liability. It has performed very well though, probably because it plays well with all the cards in the deck that provide actual or virtual card advantage. Ouphe is straight up bad against several expected matches. I recently included mox ruby and moved one ouphe to the sideboard, mostly because ouphe has so high variance and secondly because Im at a point now where I have more artifact mana than half the field. When ouphe is good, I dont care that it shuts off my moxen, because it hurts my opponent so much more.

Deafening silence should be good! Since its only a one-off in the board (and cant be found with once upon a time), I have only played it a few times. I intend to side it in in all blue matches except oath, and expect it to slow the game down to where all my cards are business and a good deal of the opponents cards are air and I win. 🙂

Allosaurus Shepherd is interesting. I will consider it. The most typical play pattern against PO and UR delver (which are the match-ups I have played the most) is that I play a two-drop turn one, which gets countered. Turn two I play a second two drop, and if it doesn't get answered straight away I have a good chance of winning. Shepherd is interesting, because I can reproduce the same pattern without having to play so many moxen. Of course, I dont draw out force of wills when I play it, so non-green cards should be few and far between (Thalia always makes it, but maybe thats it). I dont think I have the time to test it for this summer, because it means reconfiguring the manabase (taking out moxen) to make room for it, and that requires quite a bit of testing.

The deck feels almost ready. I have to figure out what to do to increase my green count by 1-2 cards post sideboard in matchups where I want to keep all four force of vigors. Im debating playing a sylvan library in the main over the third confidant (I dont like it, but may do it. Sylvan in the main was good for me last year). The other consideration is to drop plague engineer in the side for a green card that gives board control or card advantage. Im considering the fourth knight, second ooze or second sylvan library. Suggestions are well received.

Nothing in the sideboard is sacred by the way. Particularly, non-green cards could be replaced.

It's cool that you keep on playing the deck! I don't play red in my builds so I can't comment on that inclusion, but Wrenn and Six seems like a big part of your strategy.

17 lands seems like too few to me. I would play 19 at least. I think that most builds with stuff like Wrenn and Knight of the Reliquary play even more. I'm also not a fan of Mox Diamond (especially with so few lands), although I see the synergy with Wrenn. If you really want a lot of acceleration, I would consider Elvish Spirit Guide, which is very good with Once Upon a Time.

last edited by Griselbrother

@griselbrother Thanks for the feedback!

There isn't little mana in the deck. I haven't seen other knight builds in a long time, but I guess they play fewer moxen than me if they play 19 lands. Where should I go to look at recent lists? I have been building these kinds of decks for many years now, and this one has been tested quite a bit (of course, only by me). In most matchups I side out 1-2 mana sources: I side out a mox whenever deathrite shaman is a fine turn one play and speed is less important (I do this against xerox decks, but not against shops, for instance), or 1-2 lands if I really need 2 mana turn one, but am not concerned about mana disruption from the opponent. The maindeck manabase is built both for speed and consistency (and once upon a time helps). At the moment I wouldn't consider adding land.

I have added and removed a single mox diamond to my builds a bunch of times: The diamond usually ends up being too cute. But in this particular build, the two of them have been gold: My mana requirements are quite steep, and the synergy with W6 is very strong. I will look at the possibility of shaving a diamond when I side out W6, if I think dropping to 6x turn one accelerators is ok.

And: Nothing wrong with elvish spirit guide. I played it over mox diamond a year ago. In this build, mox diamond performs way better. Of course, powering out collector ouphe with diamond seems completely silly, but if the opponent needs to get rid of it to advance his gameplan, im more than happy.

Hi all,

Since last update I have tested little, but pondered and discussed my options and done some changes.

The expected meta is now: Oath, 2x UR Arcanist, Jeskai Arcanist, Bug Delver, White Eldrazi, Ravager Shops, HollowVine, PO Storm, PO Mentor, Bomberman, Breach and 1x blue nonsense

New cards highlighted:

3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
2 savannah
1 taiga
1 bayou
1 scrubland
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 karakas
1 the tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
2 mox diamond
1 chalice of the void

4 wrenn and six
2 swords to plowshares
1 mental misstep
3 abrupt decay
4 once upon a time
4 force of vigor

4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 collector ouphe
3 dark confidant
3 knight of the reliquary

Sideboard:
1 swords to plowshares (Comes in in 7 matchups)
2 surgical extraction (Comes in in 6 matchups)
3 pyroblast (Comes in in 9 matchups)
1 abrupt decay (Comes in in 9 matchups)
1 grafdiggers cage (Comes in in 5 matchups)
1 sylvan library (Comes in in 11 matchups)
1 dark confidant (Comes in in 8 matchups)
2 collector ouphe (Comes in in 5 matchups)
1 elvish reclaimer (Comes in in 8 matchups)
1 scavenging ooze (Comes in in 8 matchups)
1 Knight of the reliquary (Comes in in 8 matchups)

Updated sideboard plan:

Oath: -2 collector ouphe, -3 dark confidant, -4 deathrite shaman, -1 savannah, -1 tabernacle, -1 chalice (11) +2 surgical extraction, +1 abrupt decay, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 grafdiggers cage, +1 knight of the reliquary (11) (22 green in library, minimum)

Im not particularly happy with elvish reclaimer against oath. If I play reclaimer and the opponent responds with oath, the reclaimer can only find a tapped Karakas and the oath player gets a full turn to go off. At the same time, I have a bunch of creatures that are little but liabilities against oath that I want to take out. Loosing containment priest hurts here. Grafdiggers cage is a weaker card in my deck, but I like having a strong one-drop and a piece of hate that is not a creature.

2x UR Arcanist (brings in blood moon): -2 collector ouphe, -1 Karakas, -1 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -1 mox ruby, -2 swords to plowshares (11) +1 abrupt decay, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 Knight of the reliquary, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 dark confidant, +1 scavenging ooze, +2 surgical extraction (11) (22 green in library)

I will try to get maximum value from all my cards and if I can kill off or control arcanist, I should dominate on the board. The surgicals are earmarked lightning bolt, but can function as a counter to a flashbacked ancestral. The three pyroblasts and last plow in the deck are weak to his counter-magic. I will do what I can to play them on his turn.

Jeskai Arcanist: -4 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -2 collector ouphe, -1 mox ruby (11) +1 abrupt decay, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 knight of the reliquary, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 dark confidant (11)

In this matchup, there are still weak cards in the deck after boarding. I think I should drop one mana source, but am unsure if the ruby is weaker than the second surgical extraction, or if the third swords to plowshares should come in.

Bug Delver: -3 force of vigor, -4 once upon a time, -2 collector ouphe (9) +3 pyroblast, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 sylvan library, +1 knight of the reliquary, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 dark confidant (9)

This should be one of my hardest matchups. I plan to keep all my mana, and even tabernacle as a late-game option I could try to maneuver towards if I fall behind on creatures. My opponent probably plays TNN, and after cutting plague engineers, I need to counter it with pyroblast or pressure with two knights to go over it. The fourth dark confidant found its place in the sideboard mainly for this match. Deathrite and W6 should be really good, while Thalia could be cut if I decide I want 1-2 more force of vigors for leylines and other sideboard tech on his side.

White Eldrazi: -1 force of vigor, -1 once upon a time, -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -2 collector ouphe, -1 thalia, (7) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 knight of the reliquary, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 sylvan library, +1 dark confidant (7) (25 green in library)

This sideboarding looks strange, but I belie that after ouphe, chalice and misstep, the fourth thalia and the fourth force are the worst cards in the matchup.

Ravager Shops: -1 chalice of the void, -1 mental misstep, -3 thalia, -2 once upon a time (7) +1 swords to plowshares, +2 collector ouphe, +1 knight of the reliquary, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 dark confidant (7) (26 green in library)

The shops player may opt to play Golos stax or something similar. Even though games change, I believe sideboarding should be the same: I have enough removal to be the control, and I will cut 3 or 4 thalia, since it slows down all the removal spells.

HollowVine: -2 collector ouphe, -3 abrupt decay, -1 mental misstep, -1 chalice of the void, -1 Karakas (8) +1 swords to plowshares, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 elvish reclaimer, +1 knight of the reliquary, +2 surgical extraction, +1 sylvan library, +1 grafdiggers cage (8) (23 green in library)

The plan here is really simple: Kill the first few creatures with spells, stonewall with Kotr for a turn and land tabernacle. W6 gets tabernacle back if he wastes it and tries for a comeback. Im not interested in paying an extra red to pyroblast his counterspells: There’s no time, and he will run out of counterspells quickly.

PO Storm: -4 deathrite, -2 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah, -1 Tabernacle (9) +2 collector ouphe, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 grafdiggers cage (9) (22 green in library, minimum)

The single grafdiggers cage made its way into the library because it answers tinker perfectly (I hadn’t considered that it stops Bolas’ citadel).

PO Mentor: -3 deathrite, -1 dark confidant, -4 wrenn and six, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah (10) +2 collector ouphe, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +knight of the reliquary, +1 swords to plowshares, +1 abrupt decay, +1 grafdiggers cage (9) (22 green in library, minimum)

I will try to find out if he plays back to basics. If he does, I will keep in 3 deathrites and cut the tabernacle and one knight instead. Tabernacle isn’t a great answer to monastery mentor in this matchup, since he plays a bunch of basic lands.

Bomberman: -2 mox diamond, -4 wrenn and six, -2 swords to plowshares, -1 Karakas, -1 Savannah, -1 Tabernacle (11) +2 collector ouphe, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 abrupt decay, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 dark confidant (10) (25 green in library)

I will be on the lookout for tinker in his main or side and side in cage and plows if I see it. All my hate hits bomberman hard, so this match should be one of my easiest, as long as he aims for the salvagers kill.

Breach: -2 mox diamond, -4 wrenn and six, -4 force of vigor, -1 swords to plowshares, -1 Karakas, -1 Tabernacle (13) +2 collector ouphe, +3 pyroblast, +1 sylvan library, +1 abrupt decay, +2 surgical extraction, +1 scavenging ooze, +1 dark confidant, +1 grafdiggers cage, +1 knight of the reliquary (13)

I’ve never played against breach before, but it seems as though it needs a few turns to set up while it plays control. So I can ease a bit on the fast mana. W6 looks lackluster, but as far as I can discern, he cannot win through thalia, ouphe or cage. At the meantime, deathrite and ooze snack at his graveyard. Surgical should probably be aimed at ancestral or bolt in the midgame or black lotus or lions eye diamond if he is about to go off. I may be wrong here, but it seems like I should not aim at his combo pieces directly (breach, brain freeze or sprite dragon), since I will win the game if I can prevent his deck from functioning and lose the game if I spend too much resources trying to survive. Still: Pyroblasts, abrupt decays and the last remaining plow can easily be aimed at a sprite dragon.

If library is coming in for 11 matchups, maybe you could mpve it to md.

I have a savage Junk Hatebears list that I've been brewing that takes a very different approach. I may even start a new thread to talk about it, because I think it deserves its own archetype. I'll hint at that its built around Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose.

  • 24
    Posts
  • 6149
    Views