Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop



  • @13nova said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @13nova well probably because @brianpk80 is mad that his fair Standstill decks are bad against my Survival lists. 😂😂😂

    I'd imagine that's the only deck that's bad against Survival 😛

    LOL, now that is quality trash talk. Survival Salad, or as it's perhaps better known, "Finessin', by the Hornet Queens" is a very strong deck. I advocated playing it in our VSL pod, but was overruled despite all of the testing we did yielding positive results.



  • @brianpk80 I was only joking! I agree that Vintage as a set of expectations is a bit inbred at this point. People are comfortable with things they maybe shouldn’t be, Bazaar and Shops are both high on that list. I do, however, think Hollow One isn’t the thing to worry about. It’s success is more due to the inbred nature of the format- if people expected to have to deal with creatures early it would be fine, right? Maybe not. Maybe my deck is proof positive that Hollow One unlocks something that would be way too good if Paradoxical were restricted.



  • @brianpk80 So what your really saying is we need to unrestrict Library of Alexandria and Tolarian Academy and Strip Mine, so blue decks can be comparable to Bazaar and Workshop decks. Now I get it. (End Sarcasm, tho I'd love to see it).



  • @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @brianpk80 I was only joking! I agree that Vintage as a set of expectations is a bit inbred at this point. People are comfortable with things they maybe shouldn’t be, Bazaar and Shops are both high on that list. I do, however, think Hollow One isn’t the thing to worry about. It’s success is more due to the inbred nature of the format- if people expected to have to deal with creatures early it would be fine, right? Maybe not. Maybe my deck is proof positive that Hollow One unlocks something that would be way too good if Paradoxical were restricted.

    Yes, Hollow One takes even old abandoned genres like Survival to a high level.

    Free spells are always problematic (see, Moxen, Gush, Probe, Black Lotus, et. al.) and 4, 8, or 12 power for actual {0} makes the classic posterboy for restriction, Tinker, look like a bad Theros rare. The cost benefit ratio is too extreme. The card has risen to the very top in other formats possibly crossing lines, and these are in formats that do not even allow a single Bazaar of Baghdad. Like Chalice and Thorn have special context due to Moxen and Workshop in Vintage, Hollow One is even worse due to Bazaar.

    There were always massive calls for restricting Bazaar or other things from Dredge last decade. The fact that they subsided isn't because Dredge somehow became redeemable; it's because players threw their hands up in resignation since the DCI was experiencing a period of extreme neglect towards Vintage. By the time they actually started managing like responsible adults (thanks to VSL, Masters sets, and a mild financial incentive to promote it), the mess was so over the top, triage had to first be done on Delve, Chalice, Mentor and so forth. And at first, Dredge abided by the only covenant that made it acceptable; they had to expose their graveyard to hate and would generally lose to successive hate pieces. Now, "lol Force ur Dredge hate, tap Bazaar, win" or "whatever, 8 power for {0}" has breached the only compact that made it acceptable to keep this sludge in the format. No other format would tolerate -requiring- half of your sideboard only to have a 45-50% chance v. one overpowered deck that isn't even 20% of the metagame.

    It's gone too far, needs eviction.

    @serracollector said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    So what your really saying is we need to unrestrict Library of Alexandria and Tolarian Academy and Strip Mine, so blue decks can be comparable to Bazaar and Workshop decks. Now I get it. (End Sarcasm, tho I'd love to see it).

    You'd need multiple Sapphires and Recalls to reliably keep up with the unrestricted Bazaar and Workshop decks (Workshop being 4 cards in one--three lands with Fastbond). But that direction towards insanity and chaos isn't where *most people want to go.



  • @brianpk80 I mean, you can always Blue Belcher dredge, play 0x hate pieces and just obliterate them. Dredge is merely the most consistent, hardest to interact with combo deck.

    That said...I could see nuking Dredge from orbit via I don't know, restricted Dread Return and Bridge from Below (and just like you, I'm culling the "free" pieces of dredge--which turn resources into an effect with no mana cost). A free vanilla 4/4 is probably fine in Vintage, and if they get to variance out 2-3x on turn 1? Guess what, you've done some equally dumb turn ones in a garden variety blue deck too (herp derp lotus->Mentor->Saphire->A. Call->Extend Hand).

    Honestly, I think that while you're a little extreme on banning cards outright, I'm fine with the argument that Dredge is the real culprit and we'd be able to balance out more if we all had 6 more sideboard slots. I don't really like what this does to a lot of very enfranchised players who kind of love the Zombie Life, but it might be more fun for the rest of us.



  • @brianpk80

    Dredge still hasnt reached the point where people are even playing 1 maindeck graveyard hate piece.

    @neo_altoid

    Yes, the "6 sideboard slots" myth. Because Oath doesnt exist and no other graveyard decks would emerge in Dredge's stead...

    You can play budget white Eldrazi and get a near bye against Dredge.



  • @neo_altoid said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @brianpk80 I mean, you can always Blue Belcher dredge, play 0x hate pieces and just obliterate them. Dredge is merely the most consistent, hardest to interact with combo deck.

    It's not about finding a deck that wins [see above, "...the accusation that people are only angling for their own interest in winning more. With all respect, it's embarrassingly untrue, as no one I know needs or wants a helping hand,") but eliminating consistently low quality and despised experiences from the format's palette.

    That said...I could see nuking Dredge from orbit via I don't know, restricted Dread Return and Bridge from Below (and just like you, I'm culling the "free" pieces of dredge--which turn resources into an effect with no mana cost). A free vanilla 4/4 is probably fine in Vintage, and if they get to variance out 2-3x on turn 1? Guess what, you've done some equally dumb turn ones in a garden variety blue deck too (herp derp lotus->Mentor->Saphire->A. Call->Extend Hand).

    Unlike the cards in question here though, all four of those are restricted. 😉

    Honestly, I think that while you're a little extreme on banning cards outright,

    That's okay; not everyone is of the same mind. It's good to have voices who increase the range of the serious debate. Without this kind of discussion, even the most mild and moderate reforms unjustifiably appear radical.

    @neo_altoid said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    Dredge is the real culprit and we'd be able to balance out more if we all had 6 more sideboard slots. I don't really like what this does to a lot of very enfranchised players who kind of love the Zombie Life, but it might be more fun for the rest of us.

    The deck would still exist ideally, but would have to be toned down. Restricting Serum Powder (another "free" Draw 7 and then Draw X for {0} ) would induce it move into a Crop Rotation build, giving people a chance to interact game 1. Some uncounterable grave hate or something you can put into play from your library might help out here as well, but Wizards has a terrible track record of responding to actual circumstances with effective printings (sans one or two exceptions).

    @vaughnbros said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @brianpk80
    Dredge still hasnt reached the point where people are even playing 1 maindeck graveyard hate piece.

    This isn't true; a lot of the Jeskai builds this year were running multiple Priests main. I play a maindeck Jailer in my Grixis list.

    We can play a Sanctum Prelate deck to "thwart" Ancestral Recalls if they were unrestricted, technically. But the existence of conditional (and often underpowered) "answers" does not make acceptable conditions for that kind of Wild West. Dredge is no more defensible.



  • @brianpk80

    I mean when you are playing a control list, generally you should be playing cards that interact with a combo deck that consists of ~15% of the meta. I don't see the issue if you are sporting a single Dredge hate card in a landstill deck. Your Oath builds were also devoid of such a hate piece, and they didn't even run the mythological 6 sideboard cards exclusively for Dredge (with only 4 Tormod's as your graveyard hate).

    What I'd consider justified reasoning for restricting Dredge cards would consist of:
    Dredge is actually winning tournaments at an alarming rate, or the deck consists of a large portion of the meta (only about 15% of the meta and proportionately won 1/5 vintage challenges)
    Dredge's existence is strangleholding all other graveyard decks out of the format (not true Vintage Lands and Vintage Survival are being played)



  • @vaughnbros and @brianpk80

    1st Point of contention:
    Brian states Dredge is actually winning tournaments at an alarming rate
    You argue only 15% of the meta, and only won 1 of 5 challenges.
    The facts: Out of the 41 MTGTop8 lists for the last 2 months, Dredge has won TWO challenges, and won Eternal Masters 2018 (a 35 plaer event in Australia). In fact, out of the 16 events listed for dredge, 14 of those times there's a definitive top 8 presence, and the average of those placements is 3rd.

    2nd Point of contention:
    Brian states Dredge's existence is strangleholding other graveyard decks out of the format.
    You argue that it's not true because Vintage Lands and Vintage Survival are being played.
    The facts: in the last 2 months, Dark Depths has placed ONCE. Hollow One (the only Survival deck to place) has placed ONCE. So that's 2 decks out of 144, making between 2 and 3% of the overall meta, combined, according again to MTGTop8.
    Also, I didn't see one person playing Lands or Survival at Roanoke (the last major Vintage tournament), so your argument is actually wrong.

    We get you have a bias for Dredge as it's all you do/can play. But don't spew straight lies.



  • @13nova said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    @vaughnbros and @brianpk80

    1st Point of contention:
    Brian states Dredge is actually winning tournaments at an alarming rate
    You argue only 15% of the meta, and only won 1 of 5 challenges.
    The facts: Out of the 41 MTGTop8 lists for the last 2 months, Dredge has won TWO challenges, and won Eternal Masters 2018 (a 35 plaer event in Australia). In fact, out of the 16 events listed for dredge, 14 of those times there's a definitive top 8 presence, and the average of those placements is 3rd.

    So 2/9 challenges would be 22.2%. Is that grossly over 15%? Is that grossly over the 1/5 that I stated?

    Average placement of 3/8, slightly above the expected average placement of 4/8 when a deck top 8s.

    Alarming I tell you! Absolutely alarming! Lies!

    2nd Point of contention:
    Brian states Dredge's existence is strangleholding other graveyard decks out of the format.
    You argue that it's not true because Vintage Lands and Vintage Survival are being played.
    The facts: in the last 2 months, Dark Depths has placed ONCE. Hollow One (the only Survival deck to place) has placed ONCE. So that's 2 decks out of 144, making between 2 and 3% of the overall meta, combined, according again to MTGTop8.
    Also, I didn't see one person playing Lands or Survival at Roanoke (the last major Vintage tournament), so your argument is actually wrong.

    2 > 0

    We get you have a bias for Dredge as it's all you do/can play. But don't spew straight lies.

    Well this is a bit hypocritical as its a lie since I do play other decks, and also false because nothing I've stated was a lie.



  • @vaughnbros

    Some of us focus on things other than Challenges. I'm not alarmed, just stating that you aren't right. I don't agree with 'alarming rate' either.

    As for you argument of 2>0 - you're ridiculous. If you actually extend it to 4 months, it becomes 4 out of 350, which makes it 1%. You can't argue that there are other graveyard decks when it's less than 1% of the meta. That would be like me saying fucking Mardu Pyromancers is a deck, outside Josh Meckes playing it, which is also false.



  • @13nova

    I'm not right about what? That 4/350 > 1%? That I don't think a deck winning ~20% of tournaments when it exists at a ~15% is something restriction worthy? Dredge has also gone through stretches in the past where it was still considered a pillar at only ~5% of the meta. I'd say also say that 3%, and trending upwards is certainly a deck in the meta. Just like Dredge has been trending upwards in play-ability/win % lately! These graveyard strategies are a natural counter to the artifact heavy meta that has been going on for a while now, and some people seem to be picking up on that. I'm sure if you give it time, people will adjust and switch some artifact hate into graveyard hate and the cycle will continue.

    I'm also not sure what you want to place the cut point at for a deck that exists in the meta when a deck at 15% to you is problematic in the meta, while a deck at 3% doesn't exist. That seems like a fairly narrow range for a deck to exist, while simultaneously not being a problem. If someone is able to play their pet deck, and actually place occasionally that would be a great sign that the format is healthy.



  • So the answer seems simple to me guys, we just need bigger Sideboards of 20-25+ cards, and then preparing for anything and any meta should be much easier.



  • I didn't say Dredge was winning tournaments at an alarming rate or that it totally crowded out other Bazaar decks. I don't subscribe to the "micro-percentages in the metagame at one point in time" approach; my conclusions are informed by power level and the experiential viewpoint, ie "is this creating a bad experience." I realize there isn't much writing stating a perspective like this and intend to rectify it by laying out an alternate view of approaching B&R, since I reject the current ideology, whose dominance can be more attributed to the fact that its core tenets have been unchallenged, rather than the fact that they have much merit, IMO.

    I do understand how conclusions taken out of context of this viewpoint may sound jarring, so I accept that for now, as the context hasn't been entirely provided.

    Lance (vaughbros) brings a lot of contrarian value to many discussions, including here, though Soly (13nova) is correct that Lance has misstated several facts without any need to do so. To correct those:

    Jeskai running maindeck Priests was a conspicuous successful strategy that took off this year.

    There are at least 6 Dredge hate cards in my Oath lists, not even including Oath of Druids which is an implicit form of Dredge hate.

    Dredge has near stranglehold on graveyard strategies, though to be fair, 2% is not exactly the same as 0%.

    One thing we can all agree one I'm sure is that Madonna's career has taken a terrible nose-dive in the past 20 years, due to terrible songwriting decisions. I hope that engenders solidarity.



  • @brianpk80 said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    Dredge has near stranglehold on graveyard strategies, though to be fair, 2% is not exactly the same as 0%.

    Is Survival even a GY strategy? I'd say no, it has ~6 cards that want to end up in the GY, and of those 4 are reasonable cards to cast and attack with on there own. If my Jeskai opponent plays a Priest on t1 and an RiP on t2 I still win a great deal of those games by just playing lots of solid creatures and attacking. Dredge or some other dedicated GY deck couldn't do that. Unless by GY deck what we really mean is 4x Bazaar deck, then yes, Survival qualifies.



  • As often seems to be the case in a restricted list discussion, people start talking past each other and defining things ever so differently as to make their argument. I'll try to clarify since it seems what I'm saying is being lost.

    My "justified reasoning for restricting dredge cards" was a separate point to yours, Brian. I am a numbers guy, and if the numbers aren't absurd for something I don't see the justification to restrict something. If you want to explain why the numbers are wrong that is another argument that I would listen to. Soly seemed to be responding to my comments in terms of the numbers, and I don't think that what he presented refutes anything that I was saying and certainly doesn't make my initially factual statements about the numbers false.

    As to the elusive, mythical "6 sideboard slots", I specifically mentioned "exclusive" Dredge hate because that is what these cards would have to be for them to be "opened up" by Dredge being restricted. This does not cards include cards like Oath, Sorceress' spyglass, Wasteland, ect. that I'm fairly sure are being played for other matchups rather than just Dredge. I mean I'm almost 100% certain that restricting Dredge won't suddenly make you stop playing Oath of Druids in an Oath of Druids deck.

    You playing 1 Dredge hate card in your main deck, and winning is great news! I have to admit that I was unaware of these results as I've been playing Dredge and I have not seen a blue player play a game 1 hate piece on me. It also means Dredge isn't that hard to combat. I'm not sure how this is any different from the anti-Workshops strategy 10 years ago of playing 1 main deck Hurkyl's to sure up a match up.

    Is Survival even a GY strategy?

    Perhaps not, but I tried to be clear in stating that I felt it was a GY strategy in my point.



  • @vaughnbros said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    Perhaps not, but I tried to be clear in stating that I felt it was a GY strategy in my point.

    Right, I get that. What I'm asking is if the point you used it for is invalid? Namely that dredge doesn't shut out other GY strategies. If what you mean by GY decks is one that use 4 Bazaar, then I agree, if you mean decks that are literally reliant on their GY to win and really have some back-up plan or lots of counter-hate cards to fight through GY hate then I disagree. In that case, I think dredge does eliminate other GY decks by virtue of its undeniable efficiency. Is that a point in favor of restricting something? IDK.



  • @wfain

    Yes, what I meant by GY strategy is one that uses Bazaar and gains significant benefit from its GY. In Survival's case that is recurring a bunch of Vengevines on extremely value. If you want to view the point as irrelevant that is up to you, but I literally defined the decks I was talking about in my comment. I'm not sure how much more explicit I should be.



  • @vaughnbros
    I wasn’t sure how you were defining it, or if it was being defined consistently across usage in the thread. Just trying to clarify what is actually being said by everyone.
    By my definition a GY deck is one that can’t reasonably be expected to ignore multiple GY hate cards without dedicating itself to either removing them, or transforming to ignore them. I would not put Survival in that category. It extracts value from the GY, and its most degenerate opens utilize the GY, but you don’t have to ever deal with a RiP, Cage, or Priest and you don’t actually have to SB around them (other than maybe Squee and Wonder). That’s not true of dredge, and wouldn’t be true of any reanimator decks either. I suppose my definition is rather narrow though.

    Dredge doesn’t eliminate other Bazaar decks, I can agree to that.



  • @wfain said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    Is Survival even a GY strategy? I'd say no, it has ~6 cards that want to end up in the GY, and of those 4 are reasonable cards to cast and attack with on there own.

    Yes, it is. A deck running 4 Bazaar, x Squees, Wonder/Anger, 4 Vengevines, and 4 Survival foremost as means dumping Vengevines into the yard is definitely a graveyard deck. Hollow One is also a red flag; it's a big sideswipe most commonly seen in decks that are using discard outlets to fuel the graveyard.

    If my Jeskai opponent plays a Priest on t1 and an RiP on t2 I still win a great deal of those games by just playing lots of solid creatures and attacking. Dredge or some other dedicated GY deck couldn't do that.

    Survival sacrifices some of Dredge's more consistent explosiveness for flexibility and another strong axis of hate bears. Dredge can definitely humiliate Containment Priests post-sb, though indeed if the stars align correctly, the Priest player has a Mox and/or has won the die roll and it doesn't get Forced, maindeck Dredge isn't usually equipped to address hate.

    @vaughnbros said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    My "justified reasoning for restricting dredge cards" was a separate point to yours, Brian. I am a numbers guy, and if the numbers aren't absurd for something I don't see the justification to restrict something. If you want to explain why the numbers are wrong that is another argument that I would listen to.

    I wrote above that I don't subscribe the strictly mathematical view for a host of reasons that I said I would elaborate on in a future piece, probably posted here on the Mana Drain. I heard your view very clearly; I just don't adhere to it.

    @vaughnbros said in Brian Kelly is actually responsible for the Unrestriction of Mishra's Workshop:

    This does not cards include cards like Oath, Sorceress' spyglass, Wasteland, ect. that I'm fairly sure are being played for other matchups rather than just Dredge.

    Spyglass is almost exclusively for Dredge. Saying that it may marginal utility in other matches is like saying Containment Priest isn't Dredge hate cause it can attack a Jace.


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