[M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur



  • @protoaddct said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    I keep asking how pushed a utility creature has to be to see play and this is close.

    I know this is a tangent, but this statement confuses me. Are Snapcaster Mage, Phyrexian Revoker, Containment Priest, Walking Ballista, Deathrite Shaman, Jace Vrynn's Prodigy, Stinkweed Imp, Phyrexian Metamorph, Eldrazi Displacer, Inferno Titan, (etc etc) not utility creatures? What is a utility creature? I think creatures played for their power/toughness in vintage are the exception, aren't they?

    Yeah I think a 3 color deck with 4 x DRS and let's say on color and lotus could reliably resolve this thing on the second turn. The issue is resolving the DRS. You end up with a Junk deck that has to play 3-4 Missteps and then you want to just quit building decks.

    Check out the Survival deck on MTGO that's been running 5 mana elves and 0 Missteps.



  • @brass-man yes. I was think if this might be a fit in our Survival Salad or not. I’m not sure it is better than Manglehorn though. It’s only amazing vs Shops but it certainly isn’t better than Manglehorn or the other sideboard cards.



  • @wfain agreed, amazing against Workshops may even be a stretch. Could this card get a lot of triggers against Workshops? Absolutely. Is that even good? I don't know. It kind of depends on the other 56 cards in the deck, and whether or not they give you the ability to leverage the card advantage into a win against a tempo deck.



  • @brass-man right. I guess it depends if the 2/5 is relevant in other places too, where you don’t mind having 1 in your deck and it can just help you find flux or stony or spree or whatever your actual good cards are



  • @wfain it can just help you draw creature removal like Plow, Fatal Push, Snuff Out, Abrupt Decay ...



  • @brass-man said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    Check out the Survival deck on MTGO that's been running 5 mana elves and 0 Missteps.

    I've played plenty of SotF. I don't think it's very good if you keep a dork hand and get it Misstepped. However, that deck has the best turn 1 mana dork in Bazaar of Baghdad also as a plan A. The mana dorks and rootwalla's are just background chaff. I'm talking about a non-Bazaar deck that wants to play null rod effects and accelerate its mana, like a deck where this Dinosaur would find a home. Junk hate for example or GW.



  • @brass-man Taking that statement about utility creatures as generously as possible, I suppose that it's possible to say that creatures that also have "utility" can at least exist on a kind of trade-off spectrum. Probably the least "utility" creature would be something like Marit La(r)ge. Probably the most utility would be something like Deathrite, or even Magus of the Moat or Peacekeeper... those are almost just enchantments they have so much utility.

    It's at least possible to evaluate in a meaningful, albeit rough, way where we compare the body to the utility and say... this creature is great because of the "utility"... where this creature is great because of the body/clock. Deathrite is a really nice "utility" creature. Titan is a huge body, that also has some utility. Anyway, those statements are at least meaningful.

    I think the statement was just a remark about how far the utility side of that equation has been pushed lately. A zoo, tempo/prison deck isn't yet possible in vintage. But honestly, it's probably a Null Rod with legs short of that right now. Anyway, without getting super categorical, I think that's all that was being said here.



  • Shops is the tempo/prison deck you're imagining the format is missing. Mishra's Workshop and Ancient Tomb are very obviously what you need to have to facilitate playing 30 creatures.

    They can push non-artifact creatures ad infinitum, if the broken mana's not there, they're all just marginal sidegrades over each other and you can't get them into play fast enough. Archetype needs at least Caverns 5-8. The current Survival decks are good evidence of this; they're using Bazaar as mana accelerant broken enough to facilitate a hatebear gameplan. No accident the most successful Thalia decks of late use either Ancient Tomb/Eldrazi Temple or Bazaar of Baghdad.



  • Against shops this creature seems to me to be a very weak Null Rod: it doesn't actually stop any of their activated abilities (they still have the option to let you draw your deck while killing you with Ballista), and sports a much more awkward casting cost.



  • Re: Utility creatures

    What I meant when I said this is a creature that is not a combo piece, a finisher, a sideboard silver bullet, or a core deck component. Rather a creature that has a useful but not strategy central ability, typically this is a value engine which I certainly think this fits the criteria of.

    Like, even though deathrite shaman does have a lot of utility, decks that run it are usually running it as a mana dork is central to the strategy, rather than needing lifegain or exile ability.

    There is simply no deck I can think of where this could be run as a core component because it relies too much on what your opponent is doing, but its also not strong enough out of the board to merit a sideboard slot.

    I know its not the most apt comparison, but in modern I run living end and I would consider shriekmaw in this camp. The deck does not need shriekmaw, it can play perfectly well without it, but it provides enough utility in enough matches that it merits inclusion when the meta calls for it.



  • @protoaddct said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    Re: Utility creatures

    What I meant when I said this is a creature that is not a combo piece, a finisher, a sideboard silver bullet, or a core deck component. Rather a creature that has a useful but not strategy central ability, typically this is a value engine which I certainly think this fits the criteria of.

    I would certainly classify Snapcaster Mage a utility creature under this definition then?



  • @hrishi snapcaster is absolutely a finisher in a number of decks, sometimes the only creature the list can attack with.

    I cannot imagine a deck that wants to finish the gane with a 2/5 3 cmc green creature with an ability dependent on the opponents build.



  • @protoaddct Its not really a "finisher". Its a hate "bear" that neutralizes a lot of what Shops wants to do, and has enough utility in other MUs to be potentially MD playable.



  • @evouga I would think this card would be very good against shops, assuming there are any other bullets that kill artifacts. For example, this with some number of Grudges seems like a rough go for shops. Sure there are going to be busted Shops draws that win, but in any game that goes more than a few turns, this thing is going to be a big problem.



  • @vaughnbros said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    @protoaddct Its not really a "finisher". Its a hate "bear" that neutralizes a lot of what Shops wants to do, and has enough utility in other MUs to be potentially MD playable.

    The differences here are really innumerable though

    • larger CMC
    • Needs 2 Green mana
    • Not pitch-able to FOW
    • Proactive instead of reactive (on the stack)
    • Lack of flash (no surprise blocking which is sometimes relevant)
    • Completely reliant on what your opponent plays

    The cost of utility is often really the thing that determines utility. There are countless utility creatures that simply cost to much for the ability. For instance, Ash Zealot is a really good card that sees no play because besides needing 2 red mana, lacking flash means its not a proper answer to some of the cards you would want it against like Yawgs will. Based on CMC and spread of abilities its actually good in theory, but in practice it does not pan out. If the card had flash instead of haste or First strike, or even if it was 1R, it may have seen play. I think this falls into that camp, at least in the vintage context. I suspect in formats where a fair value deck like jund or bant see play, this card will get consideration. I would far rather land this turn 2 on the play in modern than a Knight of the reliquary for instance.



  • While I'm glad they are pushing limits with this P/T, I think in 80% of matchups I'd rather have a Heartwood Storyteller for the same mana cost.



  • Workshop decks doesnt care if opponent draws cards, it's the board state that matters in that matchup, which they usually outplay you fast by state effects you cant use drawn cards through spheres anyway.

    Id compare this to Harsh mentor, which failed to make play.



  • @protoaddct

    Snapcaster is also awful in the Shops MU. I'm not sure why you are comparing them directly as they couldn't be more different in terms of cards, except that they could fall under the "utility creature" scope.

    @YakuzaXRock

    There are actually numerous decks that want to draw cards against shops. Big mana decks, hate bears, ect. that want cards against Shops.



  • @vaughnbros said in [M19] Open the door, get on the floor everybody Runic Armasaur:

    @protoaddct
    Snapcaster is also awful in the Shops MU. I'm not sure why you are comparing them directly as they couldn't be more different in terms of cards, except that they could fall under the "utility creature" scope.

    Someone else made the comparison, not me. Im just pointing out the differences as to why its not comparable, but once again I am not sure I would ever classify Snapcaster as a utility creature considering the role it plans in the decks it is included in.



  • @vaughnbros
    Yeah some defense deck where this biggie just blocks down I guess. But i dont see it happening


 

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