Mike is pretty much right in his post.

A couple additional thoughts: Thalia seems unimportant. I wouldn’t worry about it. Maybe another Deputy and a Trophy instead? In my opinion, your SB should try to win Dredge matches (~6-8 cards), finish off ForgeShops (~3-4), and give you either anti-hate cards or an alternate plan of attack against BUG with the remaining slots.

Thank you for the feedback!

Cutting the Mox Ruby for the green fetchland sounds great.

The SB Squee and SB Confidants were attempts at gaining some card advantage. I'm open to cutting them, but I think some recuperation/refill from Bazaars is still worthwhile. Also, card advantage seems worthwhile vs BUG. Do you have any recommendations on replacement cards? I have seen Deep Analysis in some lists...

I suppose Assassin's Trophy is indeed necessary since Deputy can't hit Tabernacle.

Thalia seems unimportant, don't worry about it? I'm afraid I don't follow. In addition to the problematic overlap with Lavinia (which makes for points AGAINST playing Thalia in the 75), Thalia is strong against blue decks where Lavinia is weak (points FOR Thalia). I heard Survival has a good matchup against BUG, is it intrinsically strong against most blue shells? If that's the case I could easily cut Thalia.

last edited by mirrislegend


A few cards that can refill your hand that I have had success with are Deep Analysis (already mentioned), Sylvan Library, and Chart a Course.

Thalía is only better than Lavinia against Xerox. That’s already a good matchup (most of the time). BUG is probably the most challenging because of DRS and Narset/Leo. Thalía isn’t very valuable there. That’s why I say don’t worry about playing it. I don’t think it is helping any relevant matchups.

Ah that makes more sense. Ok, cutting Thalia seems fine.

While trying to evaluate the choices available for card advantage, I realized that I'm missing context. Against which matchups do I explicitly board in card advantage?

That’s a tough one to answer. Used to be great vs BUG style and Xerox decks. Also against Oath. Now those decks all have Narset and/or Leo so it isn’t as helpful. Personally I prefer ways to answer those problems.

@Mike-Noble: I don't plan on playing Hogaak. I'd bet I'm wrong and that Gaak is optimal, but I can't help but feel that Survival doesn't need more clock. So I'm attempting to hate and interact and such.

@wfain: You brought up EXACTLY the issues I was pondering. That's why Squee and Dark Confidant were the card advantage sources of choice.

I’ve played 1-2 copies of Hogaak in the more traditional shell and he is good. Sometimes you have to beat Tarmogoyf when they have DRS to keep you off Wonder.

I think we may have some interesting things to discuss with this new B&R.

@Mike-Noble: what's DPS?

Anyways, turnout was pretty low, but it could have been worse.

I went 1-1-1 to make T4. Lost Round 1 to Dredge (excellent pilot), drew round 2 against an excruciatingly slow Jedi Knights pilot, and crushed PO round 3. Lost in T4 to the same dredge guy. Damn that deck is intense.

I didn't get to do much by way of Bazaar or Survival shenanigans, which was unfortunate.

If super fast combo decks are now less likely (with the exception of Dredge), maybe I should cut white for a more stable and consistent plan. Maybe go to 3 or 4 Leovold in the 75 instead. And play some Ravenous Traps!

last edited by mirrislegend

@mike-noble perhaps the OG Thalia version is closer to correct now. Who knows? Maybe 3 Thalia, 3 Ouphe is where you want to be?

I think this B&R announcement was probably close to the best possible. And Yeah, I think I'd go back to the original thalia builds too. Blue seems really hard without misstep to help keeping the count up for FoW. Actually I've always thought misstep was better than fow in the blue version, but anyways.

There's still the green force and the ouphe as good cards we got since we went away from the thalia versions and those will probably come in.

I played some matches yesterday after a few weeks with almost no play and wasn't really excited. Matches felt too trivial (blue decks), too stupid (but I guess dredge is not dead yet) or too uncontrollable (karn). But now things look nice again, and maybe even fun!

@gutocmtt @Mike-Noble
The other card that I think really picks up value for us is Pyroblast. Seems reasonable to rock 3 in the board strictly to fight PO (which I expect to pick up some)

@wfain yeah, pyroblast seems great but I'm really not sure about the red splash. Tried a 4c without black yesterday with thalia, the very old version with grudges and felt kinda bad. I tried something along the bant version that was around, with the amount of relevant permanents deputy seems pretty good and Lavinia has always been. So far played only 1 match with it but seemed better. Got to fight the otherwise almost unbeatable sphynx and Lavinia is kind of a must counter against blue decks.

Fastbond is pretty serious, got beat up badly yesterday against IAmActuallyLvl1 with a amulet titan with infinite mana turn 2 (t1 amulet into t2 bounceland and fastbond). The deck seems pretty good and it's probably not even close to ideal.

1 chalice and 1 misstep sound good to have too.

  • 878
  • 247176