@wfain Yeah I know, I usually board it in as an outcome counterspell and I think that's usually worth it. But I just don't think that gives a reasonable edge in the game. I mean, you have to hold 2 mana up for something that may not even be the counterspell we need (they often times also have recall, dig, etc).

But you're right, it's surely to be considered. Hurkyl vs rod is like saying do you prefer getting a better % against shops or PO? If you rather have better tools against shops go with hurkyl, otherwise go with null rod.

last edited by GutoCmtt

@gutocmtt
That’s interesting, I actually prefer Null Rod vs Shops. Hurkyl’s was something I fiddled with to be good vs PO while keeping my blue count high post board for FOW

I don't like rod that much. Feels clunky and sometimes just bad if they have some mana denial strategy and you have mox(en). I've never got to really play hurkyl's against shops yet, not that I remember. But lately there has been lots of games where we stare at each other with some board, or even just bounce their artifacts and revokers eot and activate survival in my turn ftw.

That's still kind of only theory. I haven't played against shops and drawn into it yet but I guess I will soon.

I didn't try Graf Cage last night for vintage fnm as i do think that is pushing it. But i boarded out 2 venges in a couple matches, and i'm not playing Deep Analysis anyway, and was pretty rewarded against my opponents double dropping Cage/Crypt and stuff all the time. Got Leylined at one point and i had no Wonder, Squee, Cruise, and just 2 Venges in the deck.

Again, full disclosure is that i have no experience, but i found it more rewarding not to fight a counter war against opponent's hate. Is that conventional or ill-advised? I haven't really read a sideboarding guide for Bug Survival (or in general).

I also tested out 2 Lavinia with 2 Savs instead of 3 Trops.

@aeonsovarius
I almost always side out a VV. Sometimes 2. Idk what you took both with Squee and Wonder our for, or in what matches, but it’s not an awful plan.

@aeonsovarius That sometimes is the best option. When you have counters it's usually better to try that IF you have a hand that can go off. G2 and G3 I don't value it that highly, because our opponent is spending their resources to try to stop the combo, so our midrange gameplan can be enough. G1 obviously we should kinda try to combo at all costs (unless fighting blue decks, then it's usually it or protect the king leovold).

But still, I like VV games 2 and 3. Against decks with dack I side out usually 2 hollow ones, because it can be good if we are behind and they don't land a dack but it's risky. When I'm ahead I just cycle hollow ones even when I'm able to play it. And against decks like xerox with cage, getting a 4/3 haste for 4 when they are trying to hate out your combo can be devastating. Specially if they play cage instead of leyline, then you can later on just hit them in the air.

Games 2 and 3 against hates trying to combo usually comes down to: try to survival into trygon (if the game is going to take long), and protect it. If we can ok, just try to shatter the hate and go off. Otherwise, just cast our stuff. And honestly, that's what I love about the bug version, it's well prepared to fight hateful decks.

And unless you are fighting decks where you have to have hate yourself (dredge, oath, storm), I don't oversideboard. Against PO I was siding in only 4 cards if I recall correctly.

PS.: Hurkyl's have been insane against shops when I get to draw it. Lately my matchups against PO have been about 4 dudes in each side staring at each other and the robots getting +1/+1 counters each turn that passed by. There was a game where energy flux wasn't gonna be enough, but luckily I drew hurkyl's instead. And as said before it's still a kind of a counterspell for PO, so I think it was good. Still running 1 stony (now my hate for artifacts is 1 hurkyl's, 2 flux, 1 stony).

last edited by GutoCmtt

No love for Manglehorn anymore? I mean how does PO even get around it? Trygon seems so ridiculously slow vs PO.

@wfain It was a game against Dredge, and i figured i'd either land enough hate against them to stabilize, or i'd die too fast to durdle durdle with Squee. I had priests, rav traps, crypts to bring in. But i did have Wonder, i don't know why i said that.

@gutocmtt I had 2 Stony, 2 Flux, 1 Mindbreak because out of 8 people it was once again 4 PO.

@Serracollector Leo also costs 3 and is very difficult for them to remove. If i were playing a version without counters, and therefore more creautures presumably, i'd probably play it again.

@serracollector trygon is bad against PO as an artifact destroying card. I usually keep it in the deck because it's a blue card to force and maybe it can be useful in games that take longer. But in games that take longer I wouldn't survival for it, I would for Leovold.

We don't use any creature solely to that purpose, and manglehorn sounds bad, a 3 mana creature that's good against PO if you survive until there with a 3 mana spell and doesn't pitch to force. Leovold is better than it against PO and almost any other deck where we would want manglehorn. It's only worse against shops, but I don't think it would give us an advantage there. If there was no Leovold maybe we could be back playing it. But even when there was no Leovold I had cut it from my deck.

@AeonSovarius In that case you're absolutely right, extra stony silences certainly improve that matchup and even if it's a good one, it's good to improve as much as you can if it's 4/7 of the people you will be facing. And yeah, I didn't mention MBT because it's not for artifacts but I run it on the SB for that matchup as well.

So I haven't really played Vintage (or MTGO) in a month or two, but it seems like Lavinia either does not change the deck at all - ol' faithful BUG version 😄 - or can allow you to play a disruptive Bant versions - Chubby's list with all sorts of weird Mox Diamond shenanigans.

Took the Mox Diamond list for a spin and it was strong. I did up the blue count a little, fitting all four Missteps and FoW's in there, and found room for a Deputy of Detention, which seems like a solid addition that pitches to Force. Ended up 4-1, losing to Delver, but beating Dredge twice and Blue-Stew twice. Will try to test a little more to get a better feel for Bant, but it seems well constructed!!

Hey guys!

Any recomendation about the advantages and disadvantges between the BUG and the bant version?

Regards!

@ZaeferMalkav

I can only respond to the Bant Version of Survival since I have the most experience with this version, but so far I find that the most advantageous part is having access to all different sorts of hatebears for different situations.

That said, a lot of the time, you can tweak your list to be better prepared against other lists if you know the meta you are headed (for example running: stony silence and kataki main vs. just in the sb).


In recent days, I have been testing a BUGw version (BUG with a light splash of white for containment priest), and so far my testing has the list trading part of the mana consistency for access to Force of Will and other interactive cards.

I need more testing with the BUG version to continue my evaluation.

@zaefermalkav
Honestly, I see no reason why the Mox Diamond version doesn’t also play Leovold? It has so many lands already that incorporating a Bayou and a Jet can’t be a problem.

I have been playing the follow list in my monthly local vintage Tournament here in Chile.

I only won once the Tournament with a UBWr Survival with the red package (Ancient Grudge/Anger) but Bant version with Hierarch have probe been better.

My metagame is really wide and Oath and Paradoxical matchs are difficult. I'm still looking for the right balance in the SB, but i have to work it out.

Thanks for this long topic. All the improvement of this deck is because you guys. Is a pleasure to play this deck.

Creatures:27
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Containment Priest
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Manglehorn
1 Spell Queller
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
4 Vengevine
1 Wonder
4 Hollow One
1 Hooting Mandrills

Spells:14
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Stony Silence
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Time Walk

Lands:19
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:15
2 Containment Priest
1 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
1 Fairgrounds Warden
1 Manglehorn
2 Nature's Claim
3 Energy Flux
1 Mindbreak Trap
4 Ravenous Trap

Hey all, long time lurker, first time poster. I'm planning on bringing a bant list to a big tournament in my region, and have had some thoughts I would love to discuss. I recently shaved black entirely from the list and cut spell quellers as they felt a bit out of date. My current list for reference:

Engine/Wincon Creatures:
4 Hollow One
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Vengevine
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Hooting Mandrills

Creatures that make mana:
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

Utility (Role):
2 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade (PO, Assorted)
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (PO, Xerox)
1 Containment Priest (Oath, Dredge)
1 Manglehorn (Shops, PO)
1 Deputy of Detention (Creatures)

Lock pieces:
3 Stony Silence
1 Chalice of the Void (On the fence here)

Survival of the fittest and Bazaars:
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

Busted Cards:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Lands that make mana:
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Riftstone Portal

SB:
Fully open to debate.

Firstly, if I am expecting a fair amount of shops and creature decks, is deputy of detention playable in the main? I've seen differing opinions on 3 drops. I am definitely packing a manglehorn, but no spell quellers.

Also, in my testing with survival (and applejacks before this) cards in hand has always been a limiting factor, has any consideration been given to Gush now that Lavinia is becoming a more active hate card and Thalia is being trimmed. I feel there is a lot of opportunity in synergy with bazaar and possibility to refuel. It may just be too slow for what we want to be doing though.

Also, should I just be moving over to a red splash for grudges and access to chewer?

Should I consider a 1x walking ballista in the main as a tutorable 0 drop (like memnite in recent lists) that also has utility vs dredge and dealing with revokers?

@TheManAdrian

Have you considered finding space for Force of Will?

Deputy of Detention has always felt like a good replacement for Fairgrounds Warden, and a solid answer to anything (especially since you cut black).

If you expect a lot of Shops, then consider 2-3 Energy Flux in the sideboard and some number of Nature's Claim.

I find 2 Stony Silence and 1 Kataki, War's Wage should suffice in the main against shops. You can consider putting the 3rd one in the sideboard.

last edited by chikararyuu

Hi all,

another long time lurker, first time poster activates now that there seems to be signs of life in this thread.

I've always dreamed of owning paper power and I've been following Vintage scene for ages purely out of love for the format. Now that there might be a not-so-distant possibility for me to finally invest in paper power as well as Survival being an actual deck in Vintage (I was heartbroken when it got banned in Legacy) I decided to buy the necessary cards on MTGO and try out if actually playing Vintage was as much fun as I believed it to be.

So far I've played a total of 86 matches (17 leagues & 1 challenge) that I've kept track of. My deck has been Bant Survival from day 1. My match win percentage is currently 63,95% and I've managed to get 3 trophies in the current league and 1 in the previous one.

My current list is as follows:

Core
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Hollow One
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Vengevine
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Wonder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Mana sources
1 Forest
3 Savannah
3 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

Disruption & Interaction
3 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
3 Stony Silence
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Deputy of Detention

Flex
1 Containment Priest
1 Manglehorn
1 Sylvan Library

@TheManAdrian
Few words about certain cards I'm running and omitting:

Deputy of Detention
Deputy has impressed me since the day I first tried it and it's even better now that War of the Spark has introduced another problematic permanent for us in the form of Narset, Parter of Veils. I wouldn't run less that 2 MD and I'm running a 3rd in the SB with no regrets.

Squee, Goblin Nabob
I'm running one MD and one SB. I ran two MD for a while thinking it would make 'aggressive Bazaaring' a viable strategy, but it was more a trap than anything else. I still have the 2nd in SB for the grindy control matchups.

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
I got one of the trophies with a list that had 3 Lavinia's and 2 Thalia's, but that list was running 0 Stony Silences MD. With Stony Silences back in the deck, I can't really find space for Thalia's. Thalia has always been nice especially against Xerox decks, but there are also other ways to combat those.

Sylvan Library
Losing to Xerox usually involves the following sequence: Noble gets Misstepped, Survival Forced and afterwards one of the lands gets Strip Mined. There are not many ways to get back in the game after such a beating, but a resolved Sylvan Library goes a long way to give you a fighting chance.

Hooting Mandrills
Haven't tried, don't see the appeal. Is the card and/or function something more than 'just a' 1 mana 4/4 trample when it's at it's best?

Island
I had 1 Island in SB for a while. I'd still like to run it as it felt like the best SB card against Workshops/Eldrazi, but I don't have the space for it. I wouldn't run it MD as I want all my lands to produce green mana (on turn 1). I don't run Riftstone Portal, Gaea's Cradle or Strip Mine for the same reason.

Walking Ballista
This is an interesting option that I hadn't considered. I would try it MD over the 2nd Deputy or the Containment Priest, but right now I don't see a compelling enough reason to do it.

Sample sideboard
1 Null Rod (PO, Workshops)
1 Deputy of Detention (Xerox, Workshops, BUG, Mirror)
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob (Xerox, Oath, BUG, Mirror)
2 Nature's Claim (Workshops, Xerox, Oath, Mirror)
2 Energy Flux (Workshops)
2 Mindbreak Trap (PO)
2 Containment Priest (Dredge, Oath)
2 Grafdigger's Cage (Dredge, Oath)
2 Ravenous Trap (Oath, Mirror)

Dredge is the only deck against which I have a match win percentage below 50%. For a long time I only ran 1+3 Containment Priests and 2 Grafdigger's Cages as GY hate, but I've since included Ravenous Trap into the mix to make the matchup more bearable. I haven't faced Dredge yet with this exact configuration so we'll see. Other than that I'm wondering if I want to play 4th Stony or 1st Null Rod. One is better against Hurkyl's Recall while the other one is better against Echoing Truth.

Thanks for making it this far. I hope that we get good discussion going on about this lovely deck of ours.

Roope
kortero on MTGO

last edited by rawpk

For the versions running Noble Hierarch over Dr. Shaman, what advantage is there in running duals/fetches over City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Gemstone Mine? Even if your running Wonder wouldn't say 4 Trop, 4-6 fetch, and X Any color lands just be better? Just curious. Thanks!

@rawpk

I used to run Ravenous Trap in my list, but eventually decided to switchover to just Leyline of the Void. How do you sideboard for the matchup?

A lot of dredge lists in my area are pitch dredge lists, so sometimes my Ravenous Traps would be plucked out of my hand with Cabal Therapy before I could use them and/or get countered with Force of Will, so I decided to make the switch.


I haven't played Survival since WAR became legal, but Deputy of Detention had been an all-star when I ran it.


Regarding the Bant versions of survival, I found myself regularly outpaced by Paradoxical Outcome decks. Sure you could go 'full throttle' and jam out vengevines, but if you do not get it done in one swing, then they could combo off and it'll be over. Additionally, a lot of lists are bringing in Grafdigger's Cage to prevent this move, so you're already playing a slower, more methodical plan in this case.

Switching to the hatebear strategy (Thalia, Gaddock Teeg, etc) would work more consistently than the 'full throttle' plan, but without any interaction on their turn (aka countermagic), it felt very vulnerable to Karakas and Balance.

@serracollector said in Survival:

For the versions running Noble Hierarch over Dr. Shaman, what advantage is there in running duals/fetches over City of Brass, Mana Confluence, and Gemstone Mine? Even if your running Wonder wouldn't say 4 Trop, 4-6 fetch, and X Any color lands just be better? Just curious. Thanks

Few rainbow lands don’t enable one to splash red or black cards and the cumulative lifeloss just adds up even in Vintage. I’d rather spend ’the excess lifepoints’ on Sylvan activations. Additionally fetches are very valuable against Wasteland heavy decks so I try to run as many fetches as possible over anything spicy.

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