Rav Trap or Leylines?

Dark Confidant and Chalice are just completely out?

@aeonsovarius That's debatable. I like both cards, against dredge I don't like mulliganing to leylines where you can draw rav naturally. That makes for very weird games IMO as we can mulligan to few cards and then opp has some nature's claim and we have nothing. With rav trap they can therapy us too, but having the possibility of keeping a fast hand that can eventually draw into it seems like a better plan than mulligan to few cards.

Against the mirror leyline is better. But as I have had very positive results in the mirror and ok/bad results against dredge, I rather prioritize where I have room to improve.

Dark confidant can still be a thing, I haven't picked up the dark version because of the meta, but if we go down in combo that may be a possibility. It's a good version, but in this meta I prefer bug.

I don't think it's good to play chalice in the bug or dark version, maybe it's possible in those with lavinia but I don't have experience with that version to back me up.

last edited by GutoCmtt

@AeonSovarius I've been playing leyline in my board for my last 5 leagues and im something like 21-4 (25-5 if you count unsanctioned vintage events). Personally kinda depends on how well you know the vintage metagame. Im a pretty new vintage player and i feel like leyline is more cut and dry on which matchups you want it and which you dont. You may be crippling percentage points in matches like xerox (but the match is already somewhat favorable).
Dont know to much about the other versions of survival since ive only been playing BUGw.
I personally would play leyline ,but following @GutoCmtt is probably correct. Guy finished with 20ish trophies last season.

Going to try to upload an interesting game i just had against Oath. We had an interesting game but i feel he may have boarded incorrectly (i dont really know). I make some interesting misplays that may have cost me the match but feel like there are some important cards in the matchup that really showed their strength.

My meta this friday for FNM will be a ton of paradoxical i believe. We had 8 players last month. 2 Oath, 1 Survival, 4 Paradoxical, 1 traditional Ritual Storm. There is randomly 1 or 2 shops, sometimes a Mentor, and sometimes a dredge.

I think my meta is small and predictable enough to change my sideboard a bit from what a league list would be expecting to face on average.

Any particular suggestions? I actually don't own leylines at the moment so i will be playing traps regardless of my thinkering between the 2, or Traps and Crypts.

@gutocmtt said in Survival:

Dark confidant can still be a thing, [...] if we go down in combo that may be a possibility.

That's a good way to look at it.

I don't think it's good to play chalice in the bug or dark version

Is there a reason why not?

@gnargoyles said in Survival:

i feel like leyline is more cut and dry on which matchups you want it and which you dont. You may be crippling percentage points in matches like xerox (but the match is already somewhat favorable).

You wouldn't be boarding either Leyline or Rav Trap in against a xerox deck, i would imagine? What do you mean losing points then?

How do you feel about Guto's assessment of wanting to avoid mulliganing to Leyline?

Going to try to upload an interesting game i just had against Oath.

Oh please do, sounds cool.

@aeonsovarius
Based on what you expect, it’s worthwhile to consider Hurkyl’s Recall over Energy Flux. It’s far better against PO while still being something against Shops if you happen to run into it.

@AeonSovarius your probably right on the xerox idea. I'm thinking more of the baby Jace xerox decks but again things would have to occur for ravenous to even be live (super narrow and probably not worth boarding in at all).

I guess my point is that ravenous is alot more flexible as a side board option than leyline

Honesty really curious trying Graf diggers cage as an option. Yea it has anti synergy with some cards but has some potential splash dmg against other decks.

@wfain said in Survival:

@aeonsovarius
Based on what you expect, it’s worthwhile to consider Hurkyl’s Recall over Energy Flux. It’s far better against PO while still being something against Shops if you happen to run into it.

I'm not completely aware, actually, why we would play Energy Flux. Is it essentially just vs shops?

@gnargoyles said in Survival:

Honesty really curious trying Graf diggers cage as an option. Yea it has anti synergy with some cards but has some potential splash dmg against other decks.

I've thought that could be a thing, but i'm not sure. Friday will be my first time playing this deck for real, the rest has just been casually testing with a friend. I was thinking though, you could board out 2 Venges. That gives you 2 Venges to do a survival trick with, but not so many that you could end up with a bad hand that relies on dumping multiple Venges. Venge is the only creature we have that enters from the gy/lib and the only spell we have is Deep Analysis.

@AeonSovarius exactly want I was thinking of. The mirror would actually be alot better for you since you could just tutor a trygon and shatter their hollow ones.

I don't like the grafdigger's idea a lot, but if you stop to think about it, it's kind of a more vulnerable containment priest. I like containment priest to have clocks against decks where it's supposed to be a lock (we're not always gonna have priest + active survival or stuff like that against oath/dredge).

About leyline, a lot of people prefer it and I didn't like it when I tested it for some leagues. But I think it's worth to have it as a possibility, and maybe try it yourself. I had totally forgot about hurkyl's, I think it sounds great against shops, and I think that's what I needed. I'm gonna try a copy of it instead of the null rod. Maybe only 1 stony against PO is madness, but the matchup feel so good and there are so few things I want to cut for the matchup that using that a slot against shops sounds better.

@gutocmtt hurkyl’s is pretty good vs PO too. It basically works like Counterspell in that matchup.

@wfain Yeah I know, I usually board it in as an outcome counterspell and I think that's usually worth it. But I just don't think that gives a reasonable edge in the game. I mean, you have to hold 2 mana up for something that may not even be the counterspell we need (they often times also have recall, dig, etc).

But you're right, it's surely to be considered. Hurkyl vs rod is like saying do you prefer getting a better % against shops or PO? If you rather have better tools against shops go with hurkyl, otherwise go with null rod.

last edited by GutoCmtt

@gutocmtt
That’s interesting, I actually prefer Null Rod vs Shops. Hurkyl’s was something I fiddled with to be good vs PO while keeping my blue count high post board for FOW

I don't like rod that much. Feels clunky and sometimes just bad if they have some mana denial strategy and you have mox(en). I've never got to really play hurkyl's against shops yet, not that I remember. But lately there has been lots of games where we stare at each other with some board, or even just bounce their artifacts and revokers eot and activate survival in my turn ftw.

That's still kind of only theory. I haven't played against shops and drawn into it yet but I guess I will soon.

I didn't try Graf Cage last night for vintage fnm as i do think that is pushing it. But i boarded out 2 venges in a couple matches, and i'm not playing Deep Analysis anyway, and was pretty rewarded against my opponents double dropping Cage/Crypt and stuff all the time. Got Leylined at one point and i had no Wonder, Squee, Cruise, and just 2 Venges in the deck.

Again, full disclosure is that i have no experience, but i found it more rewarding not to fight a counter war against opponent's hate. Is that conventional or ill-advised? I haven't really read a sideboarding guide for Bug Survival (or in general).

I also tested out 2 Lavinia with 2 Savs instead of 3 Trops.

@aeonsovarius
I almost always side out a VV. Sometimes 2. Idk what you took both with Squee and Wonder our for, or in what matches, but it’s not an awful plan.

@aeonsovarius That sometimes is the best option. When you have counters it's usually better to try that IF you have a hand that can go off. G2 and G3 I don't value it that highly, because our opponent is spending their resources to try to stop the combo, so our midrange gameplan can be enough. G1 obviously we should kinda try to combo at all costs (unless fighting blue decks, then it's usually it or protect the king leovold).

But still, I like VV games 2 and 3. Against decks with dack I side out usually 2 hollow ones, because it can be good if we are behind and they don't land a dack but it's risky. When I'm ahead I just cycle hollow ones even when I'm able to play it. And against decks like xerox with cage, getting a 4/3 haste for 4 when they are trying to hate out your combo can be devastating. Specially if they play cage instead of leyline, then you can later on just hit them in the air.

Games 2 and 3 against hates trying to combo usually comes down to: try to survival into trygon (if the game is going to take long), and protect it. If we can ok, just try to shatter the hate and go off. Otherwise, just cast our stuff. And honestly, that's what I love about the bug version, it's well prepared to fight hateful decks.

And unless you are fighting decks where you have to have hate yourself (dredge, oath, storm), I don't oversideboard. Against PO I was siding in only 4 cards if I recall correctly.

PS.: Hurkyl's have been insane against shops when I get to draw it. Lately my matchups against PO have been about 4 dudes in each side staring at each other and the robots getting +1/+1 counters each turn that passed by. There was a game where energy flux wasn't gonna be enough, but luckily I drew hurkyl's instead. And as said before it's still a kind of a counterspell for PO, so I think it was good. Still running 1 stony (now my hate for artifacts is 1 hurkyl's, 2 flux, 1 stony).

last edited by GutoCmtt

No love for Manglehorn anymore? I mean how does PO even get around it? Trygon seems so ridiculously slow vs PO.

@wfain It was a game against Dredge, and i figured i'd either land enough hate against them to stabilize, or i'd die too fast to durdle durdle with Squee. I had priests, rav traps, crypts to bring in. But i did have Wonder, i don't know why i said that.

@gutocmtt I had 2 Stony, 2 Flux, 1 Mindbreak because out of 8 people it was once again 4 PO.

@Serracollector Leo also costs 3 and is very difficult for them to remove. If i were playing a version without counters, and therefore more creautures presumably, i'd probably play it again.

@serracollector trygon is bad against PO as an artifact destroying card. I usually keep it in the deck because it's a blue card to force and maybe it can be useful in games that take longer. But in games that take longer I wouldn't survival for it, I would for Leovold.

We don't use any creature solely to that purpose, and manglehorn sounds bad, a 3 mana creature that's good against PO if you survive until there with a 3 mana spell and doesn't pitch to force. Leovold is better than it against PO and almost any other deck where we would want manglehorn. It's only worse against shops, but I don't think it would give us an advantage there. If there was no Leovold maybe we could be back playing it. But even when there was no Leovold I had cut it from my deck.

@AeonSovarius In that case you're absolutely right, extra stony silences certainly improve that matchup and even if it's a good one, it's good to improve as much as you can if it's 4/7 of the people you will be facing. And yeah, I didn't mention MBT because it's not for artifacts but I run it on the SB for that matchup as well.

So I haven't really played Vintage (or MTGO) in a month or two, but it seems like Lavinia either does not change the deck at all - ol' faithful BUG version 😄 - or can allow you to play a disruptive Bant versions - Chubby's list with all sorts of weird Mox Diamond shenanigans.

Took the Mox Diamond list for a spin and it was strong. I did up the blue count a little, fitting all four Missteps and FoW's in there, and found room for a Deputy of Detention, which seems like a solid addition that pitches to Force. Ended up 4-1, losing to Delver, but beating Dredge twice and Blue-Stew twice. Will try to test a little more to get a better feel for Bant, but it seems well constructed!!

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