@gutocmtt the main matchups like the mirror outcome dack
shops and oath
kaluma last edited by kaluma
IN: 2 claims, 3 rav traps, 1 decay, maybe 1 priest.
OUT: 1 forest (or savannah if no priest), 4 force of wills, 1 flusterstorm
IN: 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap, 2 energy flux (mostly bc it's blue, situationally good, but don't think this is a great card.)
OUT: 1 savannah, 1-2 Deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 0-1 survival, 0-1 squee.
IN: 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap (easy enough to turn on with snapcasters and stuff) 0-2 claims (if you see or suspect leyline. probably bring them in against white for RiP)
OUT: 1-2 Hollow One, 1 Phantasmal Image, 0-1 Savannah (depending on how much you bring in, if you see wasteland)
IN: 1 decay, 2 claims, 2 energy flux, 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 4 force of will, 2 misstep, 1 flusterstorm, 1 treasure cruise (you're left with some bad cards still in the deck, but misstep can hit SB hate like cage or relic)
IN: 3 priests, 2 claims, 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 1 forest, 1-2 deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 1 vengevine, 1 squee, 1 wonder.
these are some guidelines. SB'ing with BUG is generally trickier than SB'ing with the other versions. There is a lot more "shaving" and you need to keep track of your blue count for Force (or side FoW out and not worry). 17 blue cards is the lowest i would go and still think there is a reasonable chance of casting a force of will. I play 18 blue cards main, and can SB up to a few more when having FoW is important.
@kaluma personally I take Hollow Ones and maybe a Bazaar instead of Vengevine, Wonder, and Rootwala vs Oath. Keeping the ability to Survival out 19 or more damage EoT is better than artifacts they want to Dack or Grudge anyways.
kaluma last edited by kaluma
@wfain okay. oath is a kind of weird one, as it can go a few different ways:
(a) you have answers to oath and can deploy your normal game-plan
(b) you don't have answers to oath, but you can sit back without playing creatures
(c) you don't have answers to oath, but you can be hyper-aggressive enough to race them finding one
scenario (a) is good for you regardless - be aggressive and answer their main plan. don't give them time to find more answers or hardcast something silly.
scenario (b) means you have survival active, or perhaps bazaar plus squee to sculpt a winning board in the face of an oath (minus orchard). Here you would like to have squee, all the vengevines, a couple rootwalla and/or hollow one are okay to hold on to while you wait for a big turn.
scenario (c) you want to have the fastest clock possible, meaning a hollow one (or two) on turn 1 can actually win the game against a mediocre oath draw. Rootwalla or deathrite are a much slower clock AND leave you vulnerable.
overall, i try to SB to have (b) be an option, but still playing towards (c) as more likely. Playing passively and waiting around while the blue deck can sculpt their hand, find oaths, develop their mana, etc., is less likely to be a winning strategy than "making them have it" (and then possibly finding an answer yourself). Keeping the big, fat, threats like hollow one and trimming the dorky slow threats like rootwalla and drs is my plan. Wonder has applications, but is pretty niche - i could see keeping it mostly as a blue creature over some other card. With this general plan I've been about 55% winrate against Oath variants while playing the FoW Survival.
that being said, if you do see a pile of grudges and dacks, yes obv cut some hollow ones. Luckily, if you die to oath game 1, you can see a lot of their deck get spilled into the GY.
Right, that just so happens to be the normal Oath deck (Dacks and/or Grudges). I’d cut all the DRS before I cut any Hollow Ones, but I’d cut HO before any VV or BR.
I just started playing again recently after picking up the BUG "SurvivaWill" and BUrG Dark confidant list @wfain posted earlier.
Biggest thoughts compared to the old bant ver. I had previously is t1 Deathrite doesn't do as much vs shops as t1 Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch on long games. The graveyards just not full enough especially if they have gy nukes like TheAtogLord lists tend to run. T1 forest into BoP then t2 Null Rod Secured many games.
Second was really missed the second Trop in the Bob list; hurt vs shops when I needed wonder to win game 1 but had to pitch my only trop on t1. So I went up to 18 lands mirroring the non bob list I saw.
SB loam seems unwieldy vs shops. Even vs stax I either couldn't cast it or lost the lands trying to feed Deathrite to cast anything if I draw if off the top turns in.
I have never been unhappy having Leyline of the Void vs Rav Trap. Even bringing in 1 or 2 vs Dack decks since I tend to mull a lot brings the "oops I have no answer" sometimes which even just delaying them is enough.
I’ve read the first few posts, so forgive me if this was answered somewhere after that: what is the counter to this strategy? It seems like RIP alone isn’t great, nor Swords/Balance, but a combination of graveyard hate and creature control is needed to beat this deck. Is Jeskai the worst matchup?
@miryafa Yes, it's a combination of those. I think the worst matchups are the combo matchups. Even with the BUG version. With the bug version, jeskai is a favorable matchup, not close to our worst ones (something close to 60/40 match win I'd say). It also depends a lot of the pilot on the other side. Still, not many people know the optimal plays against this deck (even common ones, like when to wasteland bazaar and when to wasteland mana producing lands).
Also, you have to be more specific, as there are lots of differences among survival versions. There are 4 types of viable lists out there.
@miryafa The best strategy against Survival decks is to win outside the combat step. If your deck always or nearly always wins by attacking with creatures you cast you probably don’t have a favorable matchup. Dredge and Oath can both fight in the combat step, but I don’t think either is really favored by much, of at all.
@gutocmtt you gona stream again?
@swiftwarkite2 Yes, I will tomorrow in the afternoon, just not sure what time. But when I do, I will post on the TMD topic for streaming and I guess if you follow you get some kind of notification about it too, if you'd like to.
First Challenge today with Bug Survival List.
Ended up going 5-2 Losing to the mirror @swiftwarkite2 and losing to AtogLord on Dredge. Ran into the dredge match up 3 times and was lucky to come away with at least 2 wins (auto lost first game for all dredge matches).
Dont really know the common boarding strategy for most match ups but ended up siding out something like this
Ran across an interesting hand and would like input on it.
Game 3 on the draw. Decide to keep but unsure if it was correct. i did end up winning the match but just cause i ended up drawing a bazaar which found me mana sources and allowed me to chain vengevines.
@gnargoyles Congrats on the 5-2.
I'm not an expert with the list (I think I have 3 leagues with a 12-3 record and a 2 or 3-0 against dredge) but I have played against Dredge generally.
I think your approach is fine though I would consider leaving in a Force of Will over the other Flusterstorm. I'm assuming the Ravenous Traps are over the Leylines because of cost considerations? The main issue there is that you are more vulnerable to discard and the opponent can overwhelm a single trap so it's really a stopgap measure and you are more committed to comboing off than protecting combo pieces.
To that end, I think you have to mulligan the 7 you have there. You have no pressure and your opponent can sit there until they find a Therapy and then run you over. Sometimes the next card is Bazaar though
this is the atog lords survival list that he recently went 5-0 with. i am thinking of copieing it and wonder if there are any improvements that should be made https://clips.twitch.tv/BadFrigidWerewolfEagleEye
@swiftwarkite2 it's a nice list except for the stony silences imo. I'd board in null rod instead to be able to rely on that against shops (only 1 savannah and you don't have many ways to destroy revoker on drs).
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@swiftwarkite2 IMO there are not enough blue cards to support force well enough. Sylvan library is a great card, but too greedy to play if you want to have access to force. Maindeck containment priest seems like an unnecessary hedge as well. I would play the 4th misstep for sure. The last slot I have been playing Deep Analysis (in addition to the treasure cruise).
overall, looks pretty good and very close to what has been floating around here. looks like he copied Matt's take on it (chubbyrain)?
Honestly, I copied Vasu's take from earlier posts (Rich cut a Trap for a Priest because he wanted an anti-dredge card against all the players running his Dredge deck...ah, the irony...). Vasu is a teammate of both of us and came in top 16 at Champs with the list. The deck is light on Blue cards and that does affect how some games play out, but Bazaar and Survival do help find Blue cards. I still have had a 75% match win rate with the deck when I've played it on stream and I like it a lot. I don't typically board in Stony Silence against Shops but that could be a difference in play styles. I find the tempo loss of turning off your moxen to be significant as well as the nonbo with Flux to be relevant. Instead, I leave in some of the counters and board in Decays. The Silences are stronger against PO for what it's worth. Just my two cents.
kaluma last edited by
yeah the deck in general is very good. I'm also around 70+% over about 170 matches. i certainly don't think the list is bad, per se, and it's definitely better in most metas than the thalia versions IMO. It's just not quite the 75 i would recommend.
bazaar and survival finding blue cards is good and true, but thats what lets you get away with a blue count of like 17 or 18. for actual blue decks you'd want more like 20 pitchable cards. it's not an exact science, but getting the blue count higher will make your disruption much more reliable, not to mention playing 4 missteps (that card is busted).
i really don't think one priest maindeck will not tilt the dredge matchup in game 1s. if that's the reasoning then that seems suspect. having a plan for the mirror or oath game 1 is better logic, but even then i'd rather have misstep to fight deathrites and cantrips.
@kaluma I agree that Rich's reasoning is a bit suspect here... I think he was frustrated after playing a Dredge mirror on stream, switched to the survival deck and added Priest on a whim while chat watched.