Survival
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@gutocmtt what is your optimal list for bug survival?
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@swiftwarkite2 It's still the one I got 6-0 in the challenge, I was trying the dark survival and got back to it on tuesday. Maybe I'll make some little changes soon, but so far it's IMO the best we got.
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@gutocmtt that's almost exactly where I've ended up as well, although the SB trygon turned into a nature's claim to have more cheap interaction against shops instead of 3 cmc. Fluster, trap, deep analysis are the most "flex" slots to adjust for an expected meta, and the only difference there is I fit treasure cruise in instead of trap.
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@aeonsovarius
Pharaoh: what are you trying to remove? Most decks don’t attack with creatures that matter, and the things you’d really like to get are often indestructible or draw around 14 cards. I guess it could be interesting against Oath unless they land Niv Mizzet?Arbor: yeah, I played it for a couple weeks this summer and the number of times it was helpful to me were few, where the number of times it was actively bad were many.
Bloodghast: it hasn’t played because it doesn’t actually synergize with Vengevine and you have to discard it to ever get it back. That’s a lot of work for a 2/1.
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@gutocmtt Nice to know about other Brazilian Vintage players like me ! I`ll try to watch your stream wheneaver possible !
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@maurobad Nice, thanks
When I get back home next week I think I'll stream again, probably at night and with a better internet connection ^^ -
Just an update on the BUG version. I totally forgot assassin's trophy (which I ran in the dark version). It can hit planeswalkers (lost before to a Ral - which could be jace for those who would point out how good it is), opposing bazaars, leylines and everything else that abrupt and nature's claim could. I'm replacing abrupt and trygon (which I was going to change for nature's claim) for 2 assassin's trophy.
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@gutocmtt how do you sideboard in the paradozical matchup with bug? do you take out vengevives?
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@swiftwarkite2 Lately I'm trying not to overboard. I've tried the energy flux, but it's mostly a pitch to FoW, as 3 mana is a lot, mainly if we're bazaaring. I bring in 3 rods, 1 mindbreak and sometimes 1 assassin's trophy (never the 2 of them). I use to take out 1 DRS, 1 survival, 1 forest and 1 vengevine and/or 1 rootwalla
PS.: Right now it's a little bit different from the list I passed before:
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@gutocmtt wouldent it be better to cut savahna instead of forest incase they have some path or wasteland affect?
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@swiftwarkite2 They don't, but yeah, when you don't side in containment priest savannah can't be better than forest.
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@gutocmtt
What's the second trophy for? -
@john-cox Actually, I had cut abrupt (which is was for standard in the sb) for it, and then I was going to cut the trygon for nature's claim to have more cheap interaction as kaluma suggested, but then thought it hit much more things. But now that you mentioned... The only cases I would bring 2 assassin's trophy would be to deal with artifacts and enchantments (basically oath, survival, shops and eldrazi). Of those, only in the eldrazi case trophy would be better than nature's claim. But I use to use it against artifacts more than on non-artifact creatures, and the matchup is pretty favorable already.
That all being said, the second trophy is for getting replaced by nature's claim. Thanks a lot for the question, it helped me get to think a little bit and get to this conclusion
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@gutocmtt
I prefer the second Trophy. It’s far superior imo. Only worse against Shops, but not much worse. It is 100% better vs Oath, better in the mirror and vs Dredge (blowing up Bazaar is pretty decent).
To me the only time Shops is tough is when they lead on Trinisphere or can put incredible pressure via Overseer on turn 1. Claim does help in the latter case, but not necessarily the former. -
@wfain I don't think so. The extra colored mana is pretty relevant, whenever I play it, feels heavy. I prefer claim in the mirror and oath, the extra 2 mana in the beginning of the game (the 1 you pay extra and the 1 they get) is pretty relevant. Hitting creatures and lands is cute, but that's not what we bring claim in for.
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@gutocmtt even a rudorentamy sideboard guide would be helpfull as i have no idea what to put in or out as i am completly new to vintage
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@gutocmtt the main matchups like the mirror outcome dack
shops and oath -
mirror:
IN: 2 claims, 3 rav traps, 1 decay, maybe 1 priest.
OUT: 1 forest (or savannah if no priest), 4 force of wills, 1 flusterstormPO:
IN: 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap, 2 energy flux (mostly bc it's blue, situationally good, but don't think this is a great card.)
OUT: 1 savannah, 1-2 Deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 0-1 survival, 0-1 squee.Pyromancer:
IN: 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap (easy enough to turn on with snapcasters and stuff) 0-2 claims (if you see or suspect leyline. probably bring them in against white for RiP)
OUT: 1-2 Hollow One, 1 Phantasmal Image, 0-1 Savannah (depending on how much you bring in, if you see wasteland)Shops:
IN: 1 decay, 2 claims, 2 energy flux, 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 4 force of will, 2 misstep, 1 flusterstorm, 1 treasure cruise (you're left with some bad cards still in the deck, but misstep can hit SB hate like cage or relic)Oath:
IN: 3 priests, 2 claims, 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 1 forest, 1-2 deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 1 vengevine, 1 squee, 1 wonder.these are some guidelines. SB'ing with BUG is generally trickier than SB'ing with the other versions. There is a lot more "shaving" and you need to keep track of your blue count for Force (or side FoW out and not worry). 17 blue cards is the lowest i would go and still think there is a reasonable chance of casting a force of will. I play 18 blue cards main, and can SB up to a few more when having FoW is important.
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@kaluma personally I take Hollow Ones and maybe a Bazaar instead of Vengevine, Wonder, and Rootwala vs Oath. Keeping the ability to Survival out 19 or more damage EoT is better than artifacts they want to Dack or Grudge anyways.
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@wfain okay. oath is a kind of weird one, as it can go a few different ways:
(a) you have answers to oath and can deploy your normal game-plan
(b) you don't have answers to oath, but you can sit back without playing creatures
(c) you don't have answers to oath, but you can be hyper-aggressive enough to race them finding onescenario (a) is good for you regardless - be aggressive and answer their main plan. don't give them time to find more answers or hardcast something silly.
scenario (b) means you have survival active, or perhaps bazaar plus squee to sculpt a winning board in the face of an oath (minus orchard). Here you would like to have squee, all the vengevines, a couple rootwalla and/or hollow one are okay to hold on to while you wait for a big turn.
scenario (c) you want to have the fastest clock possible, meaning a hollow one (or two) on turn 1 can actually win the game against a mediocre oath draw. Rootwalla or deathrite are a much slower clock AND leave you vulnerable.overall, i try to SB to have (b) be an option, but still playing towards (c) as more likely. Playing passively and waiting around while the blue deck can sculpt their hand, find oaths, develop their mana, etc., is less likely to be a winning strategy than "making them have it" (and then possibly finding an answer yourself). Keeping the big, fat, threats like hollow one and trimming the dorky slow threats like rootwalla and drs is my plan. Wonder has applications, but is pretty niche - i could see keeping it mostly as a blue creature over some other card. With this general plan I've been about 55% winrate against Oath variants while playing the FoW Survival.
that being said, if you do see a pile of grudges and dacks, yes obv cut some hollow ones. Luckily, if you die to oath game 1, you can see a lot of their deck get spilled into the GY.
