Survival
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@spook said in Survival Salad:
@drstreetmention edited the "original" post -- although going through the decklists right now, Paul Callis who played "Junk Survival" to a 6-2 record played the same 60 as the winning Asia Vintage Champs-- so it really was Bant.
Cleaning up the data and moving people to the right category:
Bant Survival = 65% win rate (8 players)
RGwu Survival = 55% win rate (6 players with 1 or more Ancient Grudge and Chewer)
Other Survival = 75% win rate (1 player: FOW Leovold / Misstep)Thanks for puttting this together. Not surprising to me in the least--the RGwu versions are far more matchup dependent, and that's not as good in a huge tournament like Champs. Bant was simply ultra stable and did well. FoW Survival was me, and I finished 8-2 (with 1 loss to, of all things, Blood Moons), good for the casual 75%. That's not really any sample size.
What I see from this is that--back of the napkin--is that you've got enough sample size that you're about 80% certain that bant was better against the champs field than RGwu, and 0 statistical certainty about anything about FoW Survival.
That said--every single version is notably north of 50%, so I'm quite certain that we had the best deck in the room, with a very decent conversion rate to the top 8.
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@neo_altoid you could play a ham sandwich to top 32, as long as it has overpowered land(s) and some spicy mustard. So I’m not taking your result as worthwhile. But that is a good disclaimer for other people.
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That was really surprising to me. I guess people are more used to playing the bant version as it's older and got that win (I actually got a MP in the day before asking for advice about the red version and the person decided to switch decks 1 day before the champs), and the shift to the red version is not that easy, or maybe it was better against the field there. From my experience, the MTGO results are way better with the red version, maybe the bant version is really better against that field, or those players. But anyways, that small sample with very different players is surely not enough to take any conclusions, and I wouldn't ever advise someone to play bant instead of the red version. Maybe I'm too biased as I'm really grateful for that deck for the results it brought me.
Anyway, I think we are past that, since the BUG version sounds way better than both of those. The PO matchup went from something from 40-60/50-50 with the bant/red version to pretty favorable with the BUG version.
BTW: I tested hurkyl's in BUG survival, and it felt pretty awkward when behind. I think energy field is really better there.
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@GutoCmtt what is the mix of decks that you play against online? We can compare those %'age and win rates for those matches against the Champs field %'ages.
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I didn't keep track, but I think it was something like
18% PO
15% jeskai mentor/UR(w)pyro
12% shops
10% survival
10% dredge
6% oath
5% eldrazi
5% combo (DPS or belcher)
5% standstill
5% grixis tinker
5% bug
4% random decks -
Has anyone explored a build with Ancient Tomb? I feel like this deck loves speed and being able to hard-cast your guys more reliably and quicker seems good. Also it may allow you to play a more diverse range of creatures to tutor for if that has any importance. Thoughts?
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going to pop on stream for a bit if anyone wants to hang out!
www.twitch.tv/kaluma47 -
In the BUG Variants running 4 Dr. Shaman and Leovold, and ESG (Albeit not played most games for this purpose), could a Singleton Priest of Titania be a thing? Anything past her and another elf leads to enough consistent Mana (looking at you Orcish Lumberjack) to go off every turn right?
Also, would Waterfront Bouncer be an option as another discard outlet and protection/threat? Obv also works with Guilded Drake, but both seem good on thier own.
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@serracollector said in Survival Salad:
In the BUG Variants running 4 Dr. Shaman and Leovold, and ESG (Albeit not played most games for this purpose), could a Singleton Priest of Titania be a thing? Anything past her and another elf leads to enough consistent Mana (looking at you Orcish Lumberjack) to go off every turn right?
Priest of Titania is win more. 3 mana+Survival is realistically death already, and while it would be great to cast Hollow One, it's often better to just cycle it away and try to hit gas or a more castable card.
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saw someone's list from last week's challenge on the Bant version with a Vryn Wingmare in the SB that looked sweet. Want to see how good it might be in the maindeck, and maaaaybe went a little overboard.... full on prison plan for g2, still good against xerox and combo after board, lots of cards for shops, dredge, oath.
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@rat3de The issue I see with Tomb is that Survival is exponentially more powerful the more green mana you have--G gets you a relevant creature, GG develops your board nicely, GGG often ends the game. Giving up a land drop to a land that doesn't get you closer to GGG is a cost, and even Bazaar sometimes feels like a drag for that reason. It seems very difficult to me to play both.
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@craw_advantage How come the BUG versions do not play Riftstone Portal then? It seems like a reasonable inclusion to me, I just do not know what I would cut.
"Pitch Dredge is the worst thing to happen to Vintage this decade." - 2015 Vintage Champion Brian Kelly
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@kaluma Great stream last night!
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@rat3de portal has been discussed and played before. It's a high variance card - can be great if it's in the yard, does nooothing otherwise. Colorless Mana is not very worthwhile unless it's allowing you to deploy a 2 drop on turn 1. In BUG specifically I'm cutting Mana sources to fit blue cards and enough creatures, so not a good fit.
@John-Cox thanks!
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@rat3de said in Survival Salad:
@craw_advantage How come the BUG versions do not play Riftstone Portal then?
Kind of for the same reason, I think. It's very inconsistent to get a portal into the graveyard, and when that fails it's very unhelpful because the colorless mana is so hard to use.
But this did make me wonder how it would go if the thing you cut to play Tomb was Bazaar. Lean more into the hatebears, cut some number of Vengevine and Rootwalla for another Squee and more hate/answer-type cards, treat Survival as a longer-term draw engine with less of an explosive combo aspect... no idea if that's promising at all, but that's more where I could see Ancient Tomb fitting in.
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@kaluma
I wonder about Meddling Mage in a FoW version? Seems like a reasonable, proactive blue creature to play a few copies of. -
Perhaps:
Bant SurviWill:Maindeck (60)
4 Basking Rootwalla
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Meddling Mage
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Trygon Predator
4 Vengevine
1 Wonder
4 Hollow One
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mental Misstep
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Bayou
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
3 Wooded FoothillsSideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Nature's Claim
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Null Rod
1 Stony Silence
2 Energy Flux
4 Leyline of the Void -
@wfain very interesting list. I like it.
One thing: you went with Deathrite + Bayou over Hierarch despite being solidly in Bant. This is very possibly correct as I hate playing the mirror when my opponent has Deathrites and I do not. The flip side of that is that I also hate it when my own Deathrites don’t tap for mana, especially in the face of Graveyard hate that is already hampering my deck post-board.
Do you think that Deathrite is just better in Bant full stop or is there something about the FoW approach (as opposed to Thalia) that leads you to choose it over Hierarch?
Edit: or is Leovold that good? I realized he was in here just after I posted.
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@drstreetmention Yeah, it was more about Leo than DRS, but the more people pick up Survival and/or Dredge the more you’ll want DRS anyway. It is possible you could get away from Leo in favor of another Meddling Mage perhaps? Then Noble is probably better.
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I don't know how counter-bant has been, but I'm feeling quite favored against UR/URw/URg xerox decks when I'm using shaman and leovold. I'd assume the matchup become a little worse without them to fight the fair fight when they disrupt our combo, I remember it not being that good when in the red version. I just faced 4 pyromancer decks in a row in a league, and lost only in the 5th match to 2 card monte.
Besides that feeling pretty weird, made me very confortable in the matchup against pyromancer. One game I won with DRS alone, I realized my opponent was trying to go to cruise and started eating their graveyard even having other things to do, then the sad ambush viper came in, and it was a sadly easy game due to shaman. Of course sometimes it's bad for not being a 100% reliable source of mana, but usually managing the amount of lands in the graveyard and saving it a little bit we can get away with it. I don't think I'll drop it any time soon, and I think the splash for it and leovold is worth it.
PS.: deep analysis is being awesome when fighting the value fight. I don't think there's space for the second copy, but I'm pretty happy with the first.
