5c Gush

wfain

I've only played maybe 5 matches with this list but I haven't lost with it yet. Not saying it's great but I think it is worth working on more and I would appreciate feedback. I might try to run it in a DE in the coming days.

8 U fetches
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine

5 Mox
1 Black Lotus

1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fastbond
2 Deathrite Shaman

1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Time Walk
2 Mana Drain
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay

3 Monastery Mentor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Dack Fayden

4 Gush
4 Force of Will

1 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard:
3 Containment Priest
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Flusterstorm
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Sudden Shock
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Grafdigger's Cage

garbageaggro

Why bolt? It seems like you are just trying to play the most powerful cards in all the colors and that one seems iffy at best.

Seems interesting, also seems tough if you run into shops or some hate deck with a lot of wastelands.

wfain

@garbageaggro bolt seems like the best balance between killing problem creatures and still being slightly useful against combo decks. I'm certainly open for suggestions.

letseeker

i think u should up the deathrite to a 4 of, it fixes mana and can ramp into a turn two mentor, what to cut im not sure, this looks like a good idea and i may try a list similar to it.

wfain

@letseeker I had 4 DRS in my first mentor deck, but with 16-17 lands, moxen, lotus, and gush it was too many mana sources. I'm not comfortable cutting lands right now but IDK if I'm down for more mana sources overall. Maybe a third one?

Serracollector

Are the drains necessary? You could try a third Dr. Shaman and either a flusterstorm or ponder or preordain in their place.

wfain

@Serracollector already have ponder. I prefer drain to flusterstorm main because I'm not a fan of having so many conditional counters vs an unknown opponent, don't even love misstep but it is a necessary evil. I think maybe a bolt could come out for a third DRS?

Topical_Island

Is Library of Alexandria not just better than something here? The second Bolt? It just seems really good anyway, and with the deck being so vulnerable to Waste already (I'm assuming that's the case...?), it seems handy to put in a cushion that they pretty much have Waste, and they stay off your colored mana at the very least.

letseeker

@wfain to me it feels awkward not playing all four, imho i would say all or none as drawing a late game deathrite isnt that exciting, he is a turn one play.

wfain

@Topical_Island I'm not sure it is so vulnerable to wasteland. I've got 17 lands (8 duals) and 3 DRS (I cut a bolt) in addition to the moxen and lotus, to make no mention of gush being able to protect you from wasteland. I don't think an 18th land is better than any spell and I'm not sure library is better than strip mine?

Topical_Island

@wfain ok. You could test it by taking some draws of six and just asking yourself, would I rather the seventh card be LoA or LB... or whatever, if you aren't sure. I believe you about being not that vulnerable to Waste. It doesn't look like it just folds to one or anything. I was just wondering about colors because, obviously, on the spectrum of decks, the more colors you add the more likely you are to get color screwed.

wfain

playing the above -1 bolt +1 drs in tonight's DE on mtgo. Just got round 1 over @Brass-Man I think

letseeker

@wfain In my opinion its either all or none, Its great as a turn one play but bad as a randome turn three draw, granted having four will increase you chance of drawing it turn three, but you want to play it turn one if possible. in my opinion i think the strip mine should go because it is a colorless source in a 5c deck, it mostly depends on your playstyle, good luck with the deck though.

wfain

@letseeker the DRS actually just suck most of the time. You can't really win a mirror with them in the deck. Just isn't worth playing imo

wfain

3-1 tonight in the DE w/ this list.
1 Time Walk
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Path to Exile
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dig Through Time
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
1 Fastbond
4 Flooded Strand
2 Flusterstorm
4 Polluted Delta
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Underground Sea
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Preordain
2 Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
3 Containment Priest
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Radiant Flames
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Cleansing

wfain

Going to run the following in a DE sometime this weekend

1 Time Walk
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Path to Exile
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dig Through Time
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
1 Fastbond
4 Flooded Strand
2 Flusterstorm
4 Polluted Delta
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Underground Sea
4 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
2 Preordain
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tireless Tracker

Sideboard
3 Containment Priest
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Flusterstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Null Rod
1 Notion Thief
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroblast
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Dack Fayden

Brass Man

@wfain said:

bolt seems like the best balance between killing problem creatures and still being slightly useful against combo decks.

This is just a sort of general strategy I believe, and maybe not directly applicable to your deck, but I think people overvalue card flexibility in vintage (and legacy, back when I played it). Even though you might play against an Aggro deck and a Storm deck in the same tournament, you won't be playing against both an Aggro deck and a Storm deck in the same game (Mentor TPS notwithstanding). Cards that improve your card selection actually reward you for playing with more conditional spells.

It's hard to objectively rate how good a card is, but humor me

Consider running 2 cards that you would rate "a 5 out of 10" against Storm and Aggro. Compare that with running 1 card that's "a 10" against Storm (but dead against Aggro), and 1 card that's "a 10" against Aggro (but dead against Storm). On average, when you draw a card, the outcome is about the same with either option.

But once you start dealing with card selection, that's thrown completely out the window. Cantrips, Tutors, and Looter effects all make you more likely to find, the cards you need, and less likely to end up with the cards you don't. Consider playing a Preordain or activating a Dack Fayden and seeing 2 Lightning Bolts vs seeing 1 Mindbreak Trap and 1 Supreme Verdict (For the sake of argument, assume those cards are stronger than Bolt against their respective opponents). This is a case where running flexible cards makes your deck LESS flexible.

Whether that applies to your specific deck has a lot to do with how many card-selection effects you have, and how powerful your conditional cards are compared to your flexible ones ... Just food for thought!

@Brass-Man said:

This is just a sort of general strategy I believe, and maybe not directly applicable to your deck, but I think people overvalue card flexibility in vintage (and legacy, back when I played it). Even though you might play against an Aggro deck and a Storm deck in the same tournament, you won't be playing against both an Aggro deck and a Storm deck in the same game (Mentor TPS notwithstanding). Cards that improve your card selection actually reward you for playing with more conditional spells.

It's hard to objectively rate how good a card is, but humor me

Consider running 2 cards that you would rate "a 5 out of 10" against Storm and Aggro. Compare that with running 1 card that's "a 10" against Storm (but dead against Aggro), and 1 card that's "a 10" against Aggro (but dead against Storm). On average, when you draw a card, the outcome is about the same with either option.

But once you start dealing with card selection, that's thrown completely out the window. Cantrips, Tutors, and Looter effects all make you more likely to find, the cards you need, and less likely to end up with the cards you don't. Consider playing a Preordain or activating a Dack Fayden and seeing 2 Lightning Bolts vs seeing 1 Mindbreak Trap and 1 Supreme Verdict (For the sake of argument, assume those cards are stronger than Bolt against their respective opponents). This is a case where running flexible cards makes your deck LESS flexible.

Whether that applies to your specific deck has a lot to do with how many card-selection effects you have, and how powerful your conditional cards are compared to your flexible ones ... Just food for thought!

And this advantage is compounded when you factor in Snapcaster Mage and Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and you can reuse some of your more powerful spells. I've Jace'd back Shattering Spree, Supreme Verdict, etc. for a lot of value but you can't do this and have it be as powerful if you choose the more "mediocre" or "average" option.

wfain

@Brass-Man the more I've played the deck the more I agree with what you're saying. The flexibility of the deck is maximized by playing more specific answers to problems and more ways to find them than a bunch of general utility spells. As you can see in my recent lists bolt has completely gone.

Brass Man

I don't want to say this is an end-all rule of magic, but it might apply here. Decks in Vintage have a lot less card selection than they used to (Imagine playing with Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, 4 Brainstorm, up to 4 Merchant Scroll, Gifts, Thirst ... compared to those decks, modern vintage decks have a lot of difficulty finding specialized cards.