@hierarchnoble I have just gotten my feet wet with lands in vintage (also I only play paper so much less proficient than most). I have been playing lands in legacy the past few years though.

My initial thought was to replace a manabond effect maindeck with a copy of broken bond. Much like you say on your stream, manabond is a double edge sword because you don't like discarding sideboard cards at the expense of gaining land tempo. I think broken bond is strong enough to maindeck, I wouldn't cut an Ancient Grudge because it's flashback is so important when you're dredging or bazaaring stuff.

Definatley would replace natures claim in the board, makes blowing up a 3ball or chalice on 1 much more enjoyable.

One other suggestion I have to your maindeck that you streamed recently, why not cut the mox ruby for a second mox diamond? I feel that the green production is way more important then a red mox.

So I also only play in paper as I’ve mentioned here before. I think in paper it’s so much of your meta game compared to modo. I love a high concentration of grudge in the main because I know I’ll see a lot of shops and I think that’s something to keep in mind as you go forward if you’re playing paper. If you’ve played legacy lands you have the mechanics down and it’s about learning the matchups and interactions in vintage. Personally I think broken bond is far inferior to grudge in the shops match.

I also want to point out I think a lot of people underestimate the power of manabond in vintage. I run a 3/3 split because I think the card is better than exploration in vintage and in my experience has proven that over and over again. The interaction between bazaar and loam with manabond is incredibly strong. In certain matchups you need to move faster and don’t need to worry about picking up side board cards as you go but would rather pitch as fast as possible to the yard. They share similarities but in a lot of ways this deck is much different than the legacy version which I think you’ll discover the more you play it.

The other nice thing is you can go a lot of different ways with this build as you see between my list and Mikes. I also like the manabond interaction a lot more and I’ve built in a lot more redundancy into my list to find those pieces I really need before a manabond comes down or after. Good luck building and testing!

In Legacy, there is another deck that shares some common point with Land deck, it is Jund Depths. It is more of something between a POX and a Land so basically it is less forward and more control, it runs several nice toolboxs. I don't think it could be intesting for Vintage but maybe some of the tools could be of interest.

Here is a link to a Legacy list of it.

Some hints about what could be tested for Vintage IMHO :

  • Entomb : people often forgets that it can catch any kind of card. In that deck it is often used to get nether spirit, punising fire, raven crime, loam or any sideboard card we want as silver bullet (grudge, coffin purge, ...).
  • Nether spirit : endless blocker. Maybe for the sideboard.
  • Raven's crime : is a real blast when running loam engine but it requires lots of black mana (Urborg)
  • Smallpox and Lilliana : are amazing cards but i am not sure we can afford to play them.
  • Flame Jab : is the red raven's crime. I am not sure we need it (it can be entombed but it is very slow)
  • Molten vortex : is nice as an alternate kill when surgical extraction or blood moon are played.
  • coffin purge / ancient grudge / ray of revelation : silver bullets that can be entombed.
  • Mirri's guile : is great too with loam but we have bazar so i am not sure we will need it.
last edited by albarkhane

@albarkhane you have to remember the massive differences between vintage and legacy regarding your magchups, and the power of the cards. I’m not sure any of these cards would be good in vintage lands outside of ancient grudge.

There’s no reason to play something like entomb when we can run vampiric tutor and demonic tutor if we want to.

Cards like nether spirit and smallpox are way too slow in vintage and they cost the deck double black which can be hard to produce. Something like smallpox just makes our deck fall way behind in a blue matchup where our opponent can easily produce a lot more card advantage than we can.
Also remember that graveyard hate is extremely prevalent in vintage. Something like never spirit will just get removed by graveyard hate or gives the opponent extra outs with cage and containment priest, cards that usually don’t affect the deck at all, or very little. It’s also a really bad blocker in vintage. All of our matchups are going really wide (dredge, shops, mentor) or going really large (oath). Presenting one 2/2 every turn won’t be scary at all.
Liliana presents the same issues she’s double black and costs three and there’s no way for the deck to protect her. She’s not good against the decks good matches and she’s too slow to present a really meangingful threat against the bad matches in this deck. Her power level is much less imposing in vintage.

Ravens crime is close to the same vein. It requires a deck that is very heavy on black sources and spends a lot of resources picking off one random card of the opponents choice at a time. This is significantly worse in vintage when spells like recall and time twister are legal because we have to spend a whole turn stripping a card or two and the opponent can get everything back in a flash.

Cards like coffin purge aren’t necessary in a deck that runs 2 bojuka bog and 2-3 crop rotations. It’s a significantly worse option to an effect the deck already has plenty of.

I’ve tested molten vortex and it’s also a really slow option for the deck. It’s slighlty closer to playable but requires a lot more time and more search effects for the deck.

You also have to remember to look at matchups and see where the deck needs help. This deck really struggles against really fast decks like storm and certain builds of mentor. A lot of the cards listed just don’t affect those matchups at all or do too little.

I do think some of these cards could have a home in a vintage turbo depths list. That is also a viable list that I’ve seen work and it has the luxury of being a deck that is heavy in black, can run more tutors, and more hand destruction spells, and can operate on a much different axis. I just don’t see these cards being an option for a lands list in vintage.

I agree with your analysis but for one point : tutor can't get you a silver bullet in instant whereas entomb can. However, maybe we don't need that technology.

I understand that relying too much on the graveyard can be a problem but IMHO any card with flashback or retrace can have a potential in that deck. Raven's crime is better than you think and can easily deal with 3 cards a turn but i agree that the strong black requirement would make this deck very different and is not worth it on its own.

How does Damping Sphere fit into lands?

@nungnum I've been running it in place of some of the Null Rods to improve the redundancy of those slots. It's a trade-off since Null Rod has been much stronger, but multiple Null Rods do nothing (ha!). Multiple Damping Spheres add to the storm tax, but it's a much weaker effect. I took my list with four Null Rods, split two and two between maindeck and sideboard, and swapped in a maindeck and sideboard Damping Sphere.

It looks like @POXEVERYTURN has removed himself from the website. I'll try my best to contribute, but I don't play the deck much anymore due to testing a variety of strategies instead of sticking to just this one.

Has anyone tried Realms Uncharted in any of these lists? I have always thought the card very strong, now with Crucible, and Ramunup, and Loam, its comparable to Gifts in these lists right?

@serracollector I don't like it that much. What you need is Loam, not lands. If you don't have loam, you Realms into what?

I suppose something like Depths, Stage, Petrified Field and Bazaar? But then you're diluting your good lands with Field and playing a 3 cmc spell that does almost nothing for you. I'd play Gamble 1-4 before 1 Realms.

last edited by fsecco

Its all dependant on board position I would imagine, but Realms into multiple strip efx, tabernacles, bojoku bogs, etc etc could all lead to a win. Its not just necessarily for combos, it can just be a value play as well.

I do understand gamble as well, but this can "gamble" for 4 cards for 1 less mana, and less deck space (assuming you run 1 or 2 Realms vs 4 Gamble). Gamble does have the benefit of getting loam or hopefully Fastbond tho, so maybe a mix of both could be very helpful?

last edited by Serracollector

@serracollector Gamble is mainly for Loam. IF you already have Loam it tutors the land you need. The problem with Realms is that it's too slow and doesn't get you what you want. Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but I feel you really need a Loam for Realms to work well.

last edited by fsecco

@serracollector Suggesting Realms Uncharted, and not understanding the usefulness of Gamble, suggests to me that you don't understand the core of the deck. Yes, it's called Vintage Lands, but that doesn't mean we test every single card that interacts favorably with the Land card type. It's a Life from the Loam deck, and the remaining 56 cards aim to optimize Life from the Loam and try to make it a recurring draw 3 as often as possible.

If there were a card to run instead of Gamble it would be Entomb. It finds you your Life from the Loam, or finds you the land you want when you have Life from the Loam. However, I've been steering clear of black in current lists since I've felt my mana stretched thin trying to support so many colorless lands.

last edited by Guest

I understand Loam is the main engine, but it is a "draw" card that randomly fills your grave with lands, Realms is a tutor that finds the lands you need at that time for whatever situation is at hand. Loam is useless if you either dont have lands in your grave or dont have the lands you need in the grave. I do not understand how Realms doesnt 100% compliment Loam in helping you get the lands you need to Loam back?

Space is tight, @serracollector, and every other card in my current 75 is better than a three-mana double Entomb for only lands. This is my current build. In its current iteration there isn't even room for Gamble, a card that can make the cut. What would you cut, why would you cut it, and how do you expect Realms Uncharted to perform better than the cut card in the scenario the cut card was included for?

Its not just a double Entomb tho, its 2 in hand (that a majority of the time both can be played) and a double Entomb as you put it. I personally would try 1 Realms over 1 Ancient Grudge in that list, and just see how it works out. If Im wrong and its garbage, that is fine, but I think it will be very useful in a lot of scenerios.

The card you want is Loam not more lands.

intuition for loam + targets (or triple exploration effect) seems better than realms uncharted by far and still doesn't make the cut.

I assume the mana just doesn't support tolaria west? riftstone portal is just the wrong colors for it.

@serracollector said in Vintage Lands:

Its not just a double Entomb tho, its 2 in hand (that a majority of the time both can be played) and a double Entomb as you put it. I personally would try 1 Realms over 1 Ancient Grudge in that list, and just see how it works out. If Im wrong and its garbage, that is fine, but I think it will be very useful in a lot of scenerios.

Ancient Grudge needs to be a 3-of minimum. Realms Uncharted doesn't solve the problem Ancient Grudge solves against decks relying heavily on artifacts and especially artifact mana. Ancient Grudge is vital both as a way of taking out Workshop's creatures directly or taking them out indirectly by destroying the mana they'd use to pay for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale. Realms Uncharted also does nothing to speed up our clock or slow down the clock of Paradoxical decks. Taking them off one mana source during the casting of Paradoxical Outcome, especially Mox Opal, nets them one less card and possibly the mana to chain multiple together. Hitting Time Vault after Voltaic Key targets it is wonderful too. I wish I had room in the maindeck or sideboard for the 4th Ancient Grudge, but I need to hit other permanent types. My hope is always that Null Rod functions as the 4th Ancient Grudge when it matters.

As a nitpick, Realms Uncharted probably does speed up the deck's clock, by getting both halves of Depths/Stage or whatever other piece you're missing. (Intuition would do the same thing but also grab a Life from the Loam or 3 Ancient Grudge which is real exciting, but not every lands deck can support blue spells.)

Still I don't like the idea of cutting Grudge over it. I'm not even sure I like the idea of running only 3 Grudge. If you're not steamrolling all of your Workshop opponents, playing this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

@brass-man Realms only speeds you up if you already have Loam though. I didn't remember Intuition but boy does it look great if you can reliably pay U.

last edited by fsecco
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