ChubbyBrews: Blue Jund
@pugsuperstar Fixed. I'm not used to running so many types of Lands...
Stormanimagus last edited by
Really cool list Chubby. I mean that. This is a very cool and innovative way to approach this type of deck. So, now my small critiques:
It doesn't seem as though this deck has a particularly big finisher. Beating down with Leovold can work, but what if another deck just "does something bigger" than what you can handle (i.e Inferno Titan). Even if you can't trump a card like that wouldn't it be good to have something that beats down for more than 3 or has evasion? I just worry about giving my opponent too much time to chump block while trying to find a solution to your Snap + good stuff wall.
Have you considered Meltdown in the sideboard as Shops hate? Most shops lists get #wrecked from Meltdown @2 and even if it is only @0 it can sweep out moxen & ballistas. I also don't mind Meltdown vs. PO decks (especially the ones running Seat of the Synod + Thoughtcast). It seems like it is often more effective than even grudge these days because it makes Ravager dead if you can just sweep their board.
What is your Oath plan? It seems that Brian Kelly has prided himself on really not caring a whit about Grafdigger's Cage (He runs grudges + hardcasts his dudes). So after the cages I see 1 maindeck Abrupt Decay and 2 sideboard Nature's Claim as actual solutions to the card "Oath of Druids." It seems as though this will not be enough. Do you not expect much Oath going forward?
Thanks for the cool list though!
This is the fundamental problem with these decks. They lose to the dumber things that can happen in games of Vintage.
As a matter of course, you simply accept that you're going to lose the 10-15% of games your opponent "Vintages" you, but you're going to crush them at an 80% clip in the rest of the games (which works out to a pretty solid 60-70% win rate). I'm notorious for playing these games against @Samoht , and winning 1/2 tight games (since he's very good), and getting Vintage'd in a 3rd game.
What I think lots of players hate about these decks is that you cede control of a lot of games entirely, in the way that Shops does. If your opponent has the nuts, you are often fully defenseless, and you're going to sit there with the Bob you cast on turn 2 off your two lands as your opponent does things they should only do in private with Paradoxical Outcomes on their third turn.
Stormanimagus last edited by
This is actually the opposite of what I'm claiming. I think this deck has plenty of tools to avoid getting "Vintaged" (ie Tendrils, Sphere-lock, Burp out a billion spells with outcome, time vault key) but will lose to the incredibly "non-Vintage" plays like hardcast Inferno Titan on turn 5 or Dark Depths. The only more "fatty" plan you have is for Tinker and that isn't even played much any more. This is my point. This deck actually looks better than most at avoiding the "Vintaged" problem.
@stormanimagus Hello Storm,
This is my opinion on specifically of the matchup vs Oath with both @ChubbyRain and my own versions. Fundamentally the decks are quite similar with the major difference being Dack.
To take @brianpk80 deck as the litmus test.
The below is the January 8th Vintage Challenge mana base:
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
7 OTHER SPELLS
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
To cast Inferno Titan specifically, you require 4(R)(R).
4 cards other than Orchard provide (R), 2 of which are artifact.
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
Blue Jund pre board plays either one or two (mine two) null rods, one (mine two) k-commands, and one grudge. Therefore, by turn 5, as your hypothetical scenario suggests you have had ample opportunity to find, or tutor for, these cards. Post board, the numbers go up to 2 null rods, k-commands and potentially 4-grudges (althought this of course is overkill).
Furthermore Dack can disrupt this plan through the (-2) ability.
Therefore the assumption would be that non-artifact sources would be required to cast said titan.
I will also assume that by turn 5 the Blue Jund player has successfully resolved a Leo (if you haven't, then arguably the game is lost).
Blue Jund plays Ramunap+Strip+Wasteland, particularly @ChubbyRain version is adept at finding this through Zenith. Therefore surviving 5 turns with a undisturbed one of two volcanic island is very unlikely.
The final potential (R) source is Forbidden orchard, which obviously has the downside of gifting the token, but also in the context of a deck reliant on Leovold provide an extra card.
(Whenever you tap Forbidden Orchard for mana, target opponent creates a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.)
Thus casting a titan with help from Forbidden Orchard, on turn-5, which is the hypothetical scenario would almost always profitably be a +1 card advantage to the Blue Jund deck (but more likely several), and the same amount of spirit tokens.
(Also note that the dmg dealing from the Titan himself provide card advantage with Leo out).
This above sentence is the quintessential founding principle upon which Blue Jund decks are built upon. 2 for 1ing the opponent.
@ChubbyRain please feel free to add your comments as this is only my personal opinion on a deck that is fundamentally similar albeit specifically different.
@stormanimagus I think the point @neo_altoid was making that certain things happen in Vintage that you kind of shrug off. The likelihood of a resolved Inferno Titan isn't very high, albeit I haven't played a large amount of matches. With Dack, Leovold, and many other cards in the deck, you can often disrupt the opponent enough that they either can't find Inferno Titan or they can't cast Inferno Titan. If they do, it is often late enough that you have created a significant card and board advantage and can win through an Inferno Titan with DRS's and Bolts. In the games that the opponent has a bunch of artifact mana, Tolarian, 2 red mana, and Inferno Titan, you kinda just chalk that up to Vintage. If you do want an out, Maelstrom Pulse is maindeckable as a flexible answer to a lot of permanents. It's probably the best plan in an Oath heavy field. It could also take the slot of Izzet Staticaster in the sideboard.
Regarding Meltdown, Danny Batterman mentioned it to me (not sure if you two talked about the card) and I have given it thought. I think it's a really good anti-shops option looking for a deck to call home. This deck is close as I like that non-Moxen mana ramp in DRS breaks the symmetry, but we have 2-3 Rods against Shops and Meltdown is not synergistic with Rod. There has also been a reemergence of Car Shops in Vintage leagues and Meltdown is much worse than Null Rod in that matchup.
Fantastic thread. I have put together a list similar to this but have not gotten much testing in with it yet. The games I have played with it have been extremely grindy and I love it.
Fisken last edited by Fisken
I personally could never get behind adding the Dack/bolt package, adding the red always seemed so dangerous and not worth risking an already rock steady mana base.
Granted I had other cards available to me still when I was playing BuG and this list is more “controlling” then what I used to be to doing.
There also is a lot more tinker —> BsC now
K command and was one of the cards we tried as well when trying red and the 2nd grudge , first abrade/claim always seemed a little stronger.
Have you tried any of the 5cc black walkers out of board vs blue ? I.E Ob nixilis/Angrath ?
It’s great that BuG sees play as it’s a great alternative to the more mainstream strategies.
Best of luck if you keep working with the deck!
I am planning to stream this deck tonight at 5 EST on my channel: https://www.twitch.tv/chubbyrain1. Planning to do 1-2 leagues with this and a league with Soly's Doomsday deck. No music at the beginning so hopefully the Blue Jund matches will be viewable on demand.
Change of plans - UW Landstill with VedX
PugSuperStar last edited by
Maybe an Edict effect main to handle the big creatures that sneak through?
@pugsuperstar I have been testing a different twist on this list in paper using liliana of the veil in that capacity. It has been OK.
Brassman and Chubby,
I'm unsure if this is the correct thread but nonetheless I saw Brassmans decklist for the VSL this week (Chubby Jund... correct?) and would like to re-invigorate this thread.
Personally I feel (perhaps too often) that this particular time is a perfect time for a non-FOW blue deck to actually perform well in the meta.
I've spoken enough previously (http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/1719/blue-jund) relating to the archetype but would love further thoughts.
P.S. I have not looked at this thread post website design; and it looks amazing. All the separate headings, colour coded etc. well done.
Going to do a write up on the Jund archetype but in brief... I cut the Blue to make the mana better and I found Cindervines to be such a house against Xerox shells that you didn't need the Blue Power/Dack. You also don't need FoW as much as you used to as Lavinia punishes FoW and broken strategies. Tarmogoyf is also well positioned and Cindervines/DRS give you a way to beat Xerox Pyromancer, which was Tarmogoyf's greatest weakness. Andy didn't have the best of runs on the VSL but my experience has been positive. From my records:
This includes two variants: a Green Sun's Zenith variant that is more flexible and has things like main deck Scavenging Ooze against Survival and Dredge; and a Demonic Consultation variant that is more streamlined against Shops, Paradoxical, and Xerox in particular. Win rates were similar.
One thing i've wondered about (and i've been playing 3 Forces is various decks on and off for a good while) in decks like this is, can't we play 2 forces? I don't think it's a card that must be 0 or 4 and i see this as doing a bunch of stuff besides blue stew. But it must increase the chance and diversity at interaction, no? Or give you some opportunities to tap out when needed. Maybe 1% of the time the opponent puts you on a force-less deck and walks into it, heh.
John Cox last edited by John Cox
I'm looking at picking this deck up with the cards from War of The Spark and Modern Horions. Does anyone have an opinion on whether [[Grim Lavamancer]] is worth playing? How many [[Force of Vigor]] and [[Collector Ouphe]] are you playing?
Is anyone else Brewing Jund?
Just Jund or with Blue? I'm interested in both variants right now as they are getting several new toys in the new set, though my enthusiasm for Vintage isn't very high since the printing of Narset and Karn.
John Cox last edited by John Cox
At the moment "Just Jund". I would like to dodge Narset and blue draws a lot of cards.
Here's an odd question. Would you play straight up R/G beats? I'm trying it and its doing OK.
@john-cox I think the importance of black in vintage jund is primarily found in Dark Confidant.
Previously black pain draw spells were a valid alternative, however Narset makes them much more suspect. Confidant of course dodges her.
Thoughtseize is good. Deathrite is mostly a black creature and infernal reckoning is great right now.
I played Jund in the challenge to a 3-3.
I think one of the things that gets lost is how much better Narset is compared to Dack Fayden or Jace. My deck is loaded with Abrupt Decays, Lightning Bolts, Tarmogoyfs, SB pyroblasts, Assassin's Trophy, other creatures. Removing a planeswalker isn't difficult except when I'm in a losing position already. Narset comes down, digs four cards deep, recoups the card invested, and I have to kill it or it does it again. Dack is a faithless looting in a deck without many graveyard interactions. I had a hellbent opponent slam Dack, mill 2, and then I Pithing Needled the Dack. Jace sees less cards, costs 1 more mana, and can leave the opponent brainstorm locked the next turn.
The Jund deck works because on average your opponent isn't going to find Ancestral, Treasure Cruise, Dig, and all those broken Blue cards every game or the right answers to your threats (nice pyroblasts and flusters). So they have to start trading at a disadvantage for your threats and you can eventually grind them out with Cindervines pressuring their life total or Dark Confidant. Narset is much more effective at chaining those broken Blue cards together or finding the few pieces of relevant removal like Swords to Plowshares.
This was how the challenge felt to me and I went 1-2 against Xerox, where before that felt like a favorable match up.