@oestrus I like them all tho have never cast Time walk in the deck yet. I personally run 3 street wraiths instead of his bomats and memnite since I just dont have bomats. You could go for a grindy build with 4 returning squee 4 bazaar and 4x bloodghasts take after modern hollowvine on crack with bazaar? Probably go heavier in black and run some Gurmags then too and a leovold main.
I've seen a lot of this deck in Vintage Leagues lately - four times in my last three leagues.
Some things others are doing:
- More Bazaars, fewer one-of creatures. Going all-in on Rootwalla/Vengevine
- Not splashing blue, adding things like crop rotation instead
- Playing mental misstep main to get away from some hate
Not sure if any of those are correct, but thought it might expand the discussion.
@tigersbadger interesting. Crop Rotation seems like absolute garbage to me. I could never imagine playing it. I could be convinced to go back to 4 Bazaar though. I had 4 in my first iteration when I was practicing but I didn’t like having so many. Maybe it’s the way I play the deck but I don’t use Bazaar unless I know I can make ~6 power. The deck can’t really afford to bleed cards when you aren’t sure what’s going to happen imo. Granted you do want a Bazaar or a Survival in your opener so maybe 4 Bazaar is correct.
Others have mentioned not loving the blue cards, but I definitely can’t imagine playing without Wonder.
As for Misstep- I’m not sure why it matters? Cage isn’t that good- you just make Rootwala and Hollow One the plan unless you find an Ingot Chewer. I suppose if you play vs a lot of UWx with 3/4 StP maybe you’d want MM.
I’d love to hear other’s explanations of why they like those different things.
I liked Breakthrough a lot when I was trying this deck type. I'm a bit surprised no one incorporated that in their updated builds. It's pretty solid. I don't think I would play 4 like I had in my trial runs a few months ago but I still would have a few if I revisited this archetype.
I've been thinking about Time Walk and it seems like the best case is pass turn with some hollow ones and vengevines out but in most cases its an explore plus untap. Now that might be good enough but most combo turns I never have extra mana and taking up 2 mana in early game turns is hard to do and still be productive in comboing.
Also is Ancient grudge worth looking into instead of Ingot Chewer in the main as it can be tossed to Bazaar and is better vs shops since Thorn and Chalice have been restricted (IMO).
I for one am foregoing White entirely as I don't own containment Priests and running a second Trop helps cast leovold easier which is a super potent SB option vs Outcome decks. I have had people scoop to t2 leovold when there hand is a turbo PO only hand.
edit: Although I don't know how to beat oath now; Golgari Charm maybe and run a second bayou instead of trop? -1/-1 is super good vs monk young peezy tokens and regenerate it pretty much useless with toxic deluge being the go to sweeper. Or just run Abrupt decays in the side?
Just posted 4-1 with the list currently on the google doc.
And had the pleasure of watching @hierarchnoble 4-1 with the original list tonight as well!
Thanks for creating this deck! It's an absolute monster.
The replay can be found here. A bunch of audio is cut out because I didn't set out to make a replay-friendly stream while sick. I was also not playing particularly well, both due to being sick, but also since this was my first league with the deck.
Matchups went as follows:
Workshop Aggro: 2-0
Workshop Aggro: 1-2
My initial takeaway from that list was that Reflector Mage was incredibly greedy on the mana and Vampiric Tutor might need to be cut for something with less card disadvantage. Some of the issues with the deck have already been acknowledged in the updated list in the Google doc. Thanks again to @wfain for stopping by to drop some Survival knowledge and everyone that came by to watch!
I’m going to just post a list of cards we could try/effects we might want access to and run away...
Cards to think about
Ghitu Fireslinger (or similar)
Fulminator Mage/Avalanche Riders
Mox Diamond (maybe over the non-green Moxen?)
Wall of Roots
Effects we may want ️
Some mass artifact destruction
Thoughtsieze/Cabal Therapy type effect
Additional raw card draw (maybe Treasure Cruise)
Thorn/Thalia style taxing effect
Could it not go more blue and run Careful Study? Wonder and Anger are both amazing. I loved TnT back in the day, seems very similar with Hollow Ones and Vengevines over Juggernauts and Suchis. Can Welder fit in this list? Not sure if there are other artifacts that could be used? Or if even needed, the deck seemed very good at what it does in the videos I've seen.
@wfain I'm super happy to see Noble Hierarch on that list. I've definitely wanted to get that extra point of damage in with Vengevine with the Birds of Paradise draw, but man red mana feels so crucial.
Another possible addition to your list is Big Game Hunter. Easy casting off of Survival and able to take out sufficiently large artifact creatures at instant speed. I'm still behind on builds with my testing, but if I made one swap right this moment from your original list it would be taking Reflector Mage out for one of these guys.
@hierarchnoble I’ll bet you are! I actually wanted to basically split the dorks something like 3-2-2 from day one but Noble is super expensive and I didn’t want to spend on it until I knew if the deck was reasonable or not. The one I have in right now I actually hit off a treasure chest the other day!
I’m so glad you brought up Big Game Hunter- I just absolutely forgot that guy existed. He probably belongs in the 75- fine vs Titan Oath and can be used against various artifact/Eldrazi dudes.