[RIX] Blood Sun



  • @protoaddct Good list, except Horizon Canopy is probably more hosed by Blood Moon than this.



  • @bazaarofbaghdad said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    @protoaddct Good list, except Horizon Canopy is probably more hosed by Blood Moon than this.

    Arguable and situational most likely. Both cases it loses the sac outlet which really is the primary mode for the card. I think sun is likely worse for the other player because a) you drew a card and B) they still have to pay life for the mana.

    There are a lot of lands that sorta fall in a grey area though.



  • FYI I am wrong. Under the new rules, this does allow Lotus Vale and Scored Ruins to enter the battlefield with no drawbacks.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/7o4dr2/rix_blood_sun/



  • Lotus Vale + Blood Sun is neat but probably you're better off using Kazoo lands. They lose the bounce ability, and they're not quite as unplayable beforehand.

    Scorched Ruins, though, is a net mana gain even when you play it fairly. So... maybe? After Mishra's Workshop is restricted...?



  • Also makes Lake of the dead do scary stuff. I think more practically it makes Crumbling Vestige produce 2 on the turn it enters.

    Further reading on what this card screws over is scary. Adding to my list
    Every man land ever printed.
    Gemstone Mines played after the fact
    Cavern of souls played after the fact



  • If the rules allow Lotus Vale to enter the battlefield without restictions unders this card, then I assume those same rules mean Lotus Vale can be played under blood moon, put directly into play without sacrificing lands, and as a mountain. Is that right, can someone please confirm this.



  • @gkraigher that is correct.



  • @protoaddct said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    Also makes Lake of the dead do scary stuff. I think more practically it makes Crumbling Vestige produce 2 on the turn it enters.

    Crumbling Vestige's triggered ability is not a mana ability.

    Edit: https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Mana_ability



  • @gkraigher interesting. What is the distinction between Orchard, City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Ancient Tomb, and City of Traitors



  • @topical_island et al: Look at the cards and identify the (1) activated abilities and (2) triggered abilities. You can tell two abilities are different because the text will be formatted into different lines or paragraphs. Moreover activated abilities are templated in the form "Cost: Effect" and triggered ability will start with "When, "Whenever," or "If."

    Ex: Forbidden Orchard

    T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

    Whenever you tap Forbidden Orchard for mana, target opponent creates a 1/1 colorless Spirit creature token.

    Two lines, two abilities, one of them activated and one triggered.

    Ex: City of Brass

    Whenever City of Brass becomes tapped, it deals 1 damage to you.
    Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool.

    Two lines, two abilities, one of them activated and one triggered. The order of the abilities is swapped for Reasons, but don't be fooled, these are still two distinct abilities.

    Ex: Ancient Tomb

    Tap: Add CC to your mana pool. Ancient Tomb deals 2 damage to you.

    One line, one (activated) ability. The damage is part of the effect of activating the ability, and not a separate triggered ability.


    Now, once you've identified the activated abilities, check if they're mana abilities. This means making sure (1) the ability could hypothetically produce mana (even if no mana would be produced in the current board state; Tolarian Academy's activated ability is a mana ability even if no artifacts are currently in play), (2) the ability doesn't target (so Deathrite Shaman's land exile ability is not a mana ability), and (3) it's not a loyalty ability (this is safe bet, unless you somehow turned Koth of the Hammer into a land.) Unless it's a mana ability, Blood Sun removes it.

    Next, look at the triggered abilities. Triggered abilities can sometimes be mana abilities (Wild Growth) but I can't think of a single land that naturally comes with a triggered mana ability. Like with activated abilities, a triggered ability is only a mana ability if it (1) could generate mana and (2) doesn't target; in addition, the triggered ability must trigger off of activating another mana ability (Wild Growth), or adding mana to your mana pool (Caged Sun). Not a triggered mana ability? Blood Sun removes it.

    Finally, not an activated or triggered ability? Blood Sun removes it. This includes replacement effects that modify how the land enters play (tapped, with counters, with a required sacrifice, etc), and as of the Ixalan rules changes, the removed replacement effects have no effect on the land entering play.



  • @gkraigher said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    If the rules allow Lotus Vale to enter the battlefield without restictions unders this card, then I assume those same rules mean Lotus Vale can be played under blood moon, put directly into play without sacrificing lands, and as a mountain. Is that right, can someone please confirm this.

    One point to remember: this is a very recent change in the rules. It used to be that Blood Moon did not "kick in" until certain things were already done, due to layers (i think). So, if you remember it working differently you were right.



  • The interaction was also broken on MTGO, last time I checked.



  • I love that this card suddenly takes the "strictly superior" argument that was floating around between City of Brass and Mana Confluence and just ruins it.



  • @protoaddct let’s get real here. Arabian Nights City of Brass was always strictly superior 🙂



  • @ribby

    Au contraire.

    At a waterbury once, I had to proxy copies of 5th Edition City of Brass because I only owned a set of Arabian Nights. At the time, the rules stated that City in a Bottle would kill AN cards but not 5E cards.

    Strictly worse, obviously.



  • @evouga Wow... super interesting post. Thank you.

    So how does this interact with Dark Depths?



  • @topical_island said in [RIX] Blood Sun:

    @evouga Wow... super interesting post. Thank you.

    So how does this interact with Dark Depths?

    DD would not enter the battlefield with counters.
    You would not be able to activate the ability to remove counters
    The ability to make a 20/20 would never be able to trigger.

    That being said if you play it under a sun and then remove the sun it'll instantly turn into a 20/20, but based on the new rulings on ETB cards it would also do that under blood moon.

    Basically all the same except under the moon you can make R and under the sun you cannot tap for anything.



  • @protoaddct You don't mean but... you mean and. AND it would also work under Blood Moon.



  • @maximumcdawg blood sun doesn't stop the sac from happening. The vale or ruins wouldn't even enter the battlefield without the sac.'
    Errata on these cards prevent this from working. If it were as written on the cards, blood sun would work. As is, it does not. Unless I missed it when errata was removed?



  • So several things jump out at me about this card vs. Blood Moon:

    1. Blood Sun does nothing to stop the true dual lands; on the other hand, it turns off fetchlands completely, rather than just turning them into Mountains. This means that opposing decks are less likely to get color-screwed (annoying if they are holding Fragmentize or similar answers), but more likely to get pinched on total amount of mana.

    2. Blood Sun doesn't do much of anything against Shops (well, it turns Mishra's Factory and Wasteland into Wastes, but if you're running Moon effects in your deck you probably don't care much about opposing Wastelands). A red deck should have no trouble with Shops answers, of course, but these are slots that now need to be dedicated to the matchup, whereas Blood Moon is inherently disruptive against Shops.

    3. Blood Sun replaces itself, making it just a bad, rather than atrocious, late-game topdeck.

    I don't think the third point outweights the first two. Blood Moon on the draw is already miserable when the opponent fetches a basic; Sun won't do anything even when the opponent gets greedy and fetches a T1 dual. Being dead against Shops is yet another big blow against Sun. Yes, Sun is better in some kind of Karoo or Lotus Vale brew, but that sounds too cute to be any good, to me.


 

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