Why I want to be more casual
This is something I have been thinking about that is stemming from all the recent discussion about workshops and possible restrictions, so bear with me. As a player, I have my power and the ability to pretty much build any deck I want to in vintage with some trading/buying. I have played in some larger events but also have just enjoy playing the format casually every now and again.
I am staggeringly bored with the format right now. I find myself, given the option, gravitating towards playing modern or legacy more often than not. I was even recently pricing out what my power would get me were I to sell it. I really don't think I want to walk away from the format forever, but I play it so infrequently now that it is hard for me to justify having this much cash tied up in it.
Now, this is not to say there have not been shifts and changes in the format on a whole, the format has actually had some pretty big shifts, and I had to think long and hard about why I am not enjoying it like I used to, feeling it being stagnant even though I know things are moving.
When the discussion about Shops possibly being restricted came up, it honestly really excited me. It's a card I think is long overdue for a restriction and have thought so for years (I think I may make the same argument about Bazaar and misstep to be truthful, I don't mind having a larger restricted list), but what really excited me was not the thought that it would balance the format more, but rather the hope that it would make Tribal Eldrazi a viable deck again. Without 4x shops, I reasoned that you would still have shops decks that run the full compliment of power cards, but that it would not just be the "strictly" superior colorless deck and eldrazi could come back into contention, perhaps even running a singleton copy of shops to power out null rods, spyglasses, and spheres.
Once I started to think about it though, I realized the real reason I am bored with vintage is because while I like playing in a format with Shops, Moxen, and Big blue stuff, I really don't want to actually play those cards myself. The idea of playing a deck that specifically does not want to run blue or Moxen because it's a viable meta attack on those very cards is actually what makes me interested in the format, and up until this point those lists have been few and far between. Dredge does not run those cards but it does not specifically prey on them, where as tribal eldrazi literally tried to take the cards that help define the format and turn them into a liability. Humans for a time could get away with just running a few pieces of power and trying to attack people who over extended into those cards, but I don't think the deck ever quite got good enough.
If shops does get restricted, I am very likely to sell my power, buy a single copy of workshops (or 2 so I have an commander copy) and actually put together said list, so I am actually hoping that happens. I think it would rejuvenate the format for me and quite possibly others. This is not a budget discussion, I want to play to win and want to be competitive, but I also cannot help but think that this could greatly help in that regard as well. Eldrazi is about as costly as a meta Modern deck with a single workshops and no other power.
Does anyone else share my feeling here? I cant imagine people who have played for years and yeas sometimes just don't want to play out moxen every now and again.
Brass Man last edited by
Without trying to be sarcastic or hostile in any way, maybe vintage just isn't a format you like playing? The format has never had fewer moxes in it than there are now. From a match-win perspective I don't know that there has ever been a time when low-power decks have been this good since Mirrodin-ish. If you feel like those strategies aren't working now, I don't know that it's going to get any better for you.
Legacy is pretty fantastic, I'd love to play it myself but I feel like I only have enough time to dedicate to one format. It sounds like you might have more fun in that format?
I want people to play vintage, but not if they're not enjoying it.
mat has never had fewer moxes in it than there are now. From a match-win perspective I don't know that there has ever been a time when low-power decks have been this good since Mirrodin-ish. If you feel like those strategies aren't working now, I don't know that it's going to get any better for you.
Legacy is pretty fantastic, I'd love to play it myself but I feel like I only have enough time to dedicate to one forma
I did at some point enjoy it a lot more than I do now. I used to play dredge and did very well with it, but I wanted to try something else because dredge in Vintage really felt too similar to me to Dredge in Legacy, and was not good outside of tournaments. People don't even want to test against it half the time.
I like that some strategies exist in the format that I don't get to play against otherwise. I liked playing against prison style decks, I liked seeing combo decks with one brainstorm, it is stuff you just don't see in other formats. In legacy I love that a deck like Miracles or merfolk can exist and win, however I would never want to play them myself, no different than vintage.
I don't want power and company to go away, it is after all the defining aspect of the format, but I would like to see more parallel strategies exist with it. Dredge was the last real established archetype this format got and it got it by accident. Most of the reason dredge can exist is specifically because it does not have cards that cross over with other strategies. I play living end in modern and It feels like a similar thing, where the deck functions on such a different vector that other decks would not use most of the cards even if they wanted to because they are so bad out of context.
Humans and Eldrazi had a shot in vintage but just do not have the tools to use that the moxen decks don't as well. Personally I hope one day we do get more viable lists like that so I can myself play them, but as a side effect of that I do think for the health of the format it would be a big deal.
Nasfer last edited by
@protoaddct I feel the same way at times. I bought into MTGO power and such online only to have a really crappy experience.
Legacy is an incredible format if you like playing powerful cards with insane diversity but not having to worry about Workshop, Power, or Bazaar. The format is still growing with it now being in the team events and I think it's still bringing out a ton more new decks with Miracles taking an arrow to the knee.
As for anyone who would not want to test against Dredge then they really aren't trying to better their game by skipping out on this. Dredge is a very explosive deck that you should ALWAYS be prepared for. My friend plays Omni Sneak and Show in legacy and the match-up so redundant and boring at times. I still play against him to help him better with his sequencing, my sequencing, and just a better understanding of the deck so I can learn when the time comes to beat it.
My recommendation is don't sell yet, take some time away play Legacy a little bit, see how that goes. Revisit vintage at a later time and see how it feels then. Buying back into power is a project, no reason on losing money by doing so.
spook last edited by spook
Played a side event at the Grand Prix yesterday. It was very casual and fun. I played a deck that I wanted to play, not a deck that I thought would be a slog but would win me some packs I would never want.
I think everyone had a great time and there was a lot of diversity because people went in to have fun.
If you choose events like that, and avoid toxic people you might find what you are looking for.
@spook Fair, though I really want to stress this was not about the community at all. In my time as a vintage player I would say the players I have played with were not really any better or worse than any other magic format. You get less obnoxious children and slightly more pretentious adults, but it's still far better than the communities I have seen with other card games. My gripe is more with the current meta of the format, and what I feel is the somewhat stagnant nature of an eternal setting, where the best cards tend to settle at the best slot and very rarely get pushed out because they are typically a mistake to begin with.
From a format health perspective, I do think that if we are not actually at the tipping point now, we will get there soon enough where WOTC just has an issue with the formats health because of it's very nature. That is mostly the argument with workshops and few other cards as well, in that if you don't do something about them they will just continue to break other cards because they are not designed with vintage in mind. Who would have thought a few years ago that vintage would get things like treasure cruise, misstep, and all the artifacts we now have that would not only be viable, but push other mid level cards out with such force. I would not be surprised in the future to hear people talking about making vintage a singleton only format or something like that just to avoid having to have a banned list, just because the top strategies tend to get more redundant cards as time goes on than new strategies are allowed to emerge.
Marland_Moore last edited by Marland_Moore
I have played a lot and a little at various times over the years and at 2 points I stopped playing for over a year. Sometimes, you need a break. I do not think it is the cards, but fatigue.
Honestly, if you invested the time you could build a mono-black deck that wins in this format. I have done it, it just takes time and commitment. The issue is not a single card, I think changing how you think about the game may bring back your enjoyment.
Except for a very small number of cards, I see the issue with the players not the cards. I played around with Modern and Legacy, and Vintage is my format. I do recommend a break. If you view your collection as a treasure trove then dumping the cards will eventually happen.
I have seen many players dump their collections with mixed emotions afterward. I personally view my collection as a piece of me and I am not willing to ever sell it unless I am about to be homeless, but that's me.
thecravenone last edited by
@spook I played too. What did you play? Did you play someone with a 4c control/value deck?