@ten-ten said in [RIX] Immortal Sun:

Wotc keeps printing cards for shops. Smh. This won't see play anywhere else but edh or shop decks. It's boring if u ask me. The effects matter in shops but otherwise a bland card.

I think you mean to say WOTC keeps printing artifacts. Lets be honest, by any metric this card is not crazy on its own. 6 mana is a lot and the effects are not even fully recognizable by some lists. There are plenty of games where there will be no walkers and the +1+1 is win more.

Workshops is the only thing that makes this go from EDH filler to possible format player.

@garbageaggro said in [RIX] Immortal Sun:

@khahan I think the cost reason is exactly the idea though. Is this better than Staff of Nin probably, did that card see any play, not really. Because it cost too much for the payoff. People who think this isn't good for shops think it costs too much. I am not sure, but i think that is the reason that people would say that.

Very valid point. I've used 'it costs too much' to shoot down many cards on this site because it IS a valid argument. I'm just wondering if a grindy prison version of shops would utilize this. Of course that begs the question: why would anybody play a grindy prison version when they can run ravager shops?

With that said, I will squeal like a little girl if I rip this in a draft.

last edited by Khahan

Years ago, i used staff of Nim in a welder shell and the deck did work very well. That card may fit the same slot. Unfortunately, nowadays the meta is very bad for welder (too many removal around) and any incarnation of control shop i can think of is just below the ravager agro deck. Still, I think i will get a playset of it to be on the safe side and pray for better days.

last edited by albarkhane


The cost reduction certainly matters when you are seeing 2 cards a turn.

This card is clearly better than staff of Nim, but that’s not saying a whole lot. Staff hasn’t been playable in a while, and even when it was it was fringe.

I think 6 mana is just too much in this format to play the card. Especially for a card that doesn’t outright win the game if you don’t respond to it. Drawing multiple cards a turn is worse for agro decks than it is for any other deck style in vintage. The only thing you are looking for is more threats. While this does pump your board (a 6 mana non-creature chief of the foundry) or stop a planewalker (6 mana phyrexian revoker), it still will take at least 2 turns to impact the board (remember shops plays around 26 mana sources) by replacing itself with a new threat. That’s the math on it, and the math isn’t good for a 6 mana spell.

Compare it to Wurmcoil (a card I think is overplayed and pretty awful in shops), at least if that card isn’t responded to, it wins the game by itself. This card only makes you draw more cards, it’s pretty meh.

@gkraigher said in [RIX] Immortal Sun:

Compare it to Wurmcoil (a card I think is overplayed and pretty awful in shops), at least if that card isn’t responded to, it wins the game by itself. This card only makes you draw more cards, it’s pretty meh.

You can't compare it with Wurmcoil because they're meant for different matchups. Wurmcoil never comes in against Dack Fayden decks, this does.

ps: I also think the cost is too high for modern aggro shops

last edited by fsecco

This is actually a 4-drop in Vintage. So its comparable is Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Very much harder to play turn 1, but easier to play turn 2, and both probably hit the sweet spot in turn 3. It's overall impact of the game seems... broadly similar? A personal Howling Mine that also had an inefficient but non-trivial impact on the board. A pseudo-planeswalker that trumps other actual planeswalkers in grind mirrors. Don't know how to really evaluate that cost reducer at this rate though.

It won't fit in Ravager aggro in the same way that you'd never even think of JTMS in Delver, if you care at all about your mana curve.

But if you ever cared to move away from the tempo aggro positioning when play Workshop, it's conceivable to see this as a grindy curve-topper to a grindy strategy that attempts to extract max rate per card (JTMS in every success Island-based grindy strategy in the decade setting a precedent)

This feels way more cohesive than Staff of Nin. The first three abilities line up way better. The fourth one is just weird though.

last edited by ribby


How is this a 4 drop? Are you assuming you will always have a shop, because that is a bad assumption.


I’m just comparing it to vintage relevant cards that have the same mana cost, and actually impact the board tremendously when they hit. This card has marginal impact when it hits, it’s a “Morale” for that turn then does absolutely nothing more until your opponents turn if they have a planewalker, otherwise you have to wait an entire full turn before it replaces itself with a card.

Meanwhile, if you landed an actual threat like Steel Hellkite you could potentially win the game on the spot if it isn’t answered.

last edited by gkraigher

@gkraigher Shop decks produce 1.5 mana per mana source on average. For higher cost cards the variance in the mana quantization is not significant.

@gkraigher I understand that that's why you're comparing them. What I'm saying is that doing that is like comparing Pyroblast and Smelt.

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