The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop

Also, turn 2 vault key doesn't take much, right like key can be a 4 of and you can do it off of tomb (4 of) key (4 of) and vault (1 of), which is easier than yours, and all artifacts too, but just doesn't happen....

The reason why today's shop is the fastest shop in the history attributed to the multiple restrictions in the past few years.

People were whining being locked out and could not play magic. Lock pieces restricted. Now shop becomes an affinity comparable in modern, and now it is complained too explosive.

It is unbelievable that modern can handle affinity but vintage cannot handle shop, given shop can rarely tax you from playing any hate cards like energy flux or Huryl's recall or likes. Or, are blue mages so uncomfortable to pack more removals instead of pyroblasts?

I understood some prefer blue vs blue all the day like in legacy, but it is vintage and kicking shop out of the top tier won't make the meta 'healthier'.

@jsakpc Vintage has mishra's workshop + ancient tomb, modern has neither. THis increases the rate at which shops can dump their hand. Vintage also uses ballista.
YOur opponent either has the card they need in the first 3 turns or they don't. Hurkyl's doesn't help much at all since shops can drop it's entire hand again the following turn due to foundry inspector being busted. It literally only buy's 1-2 turns.

last edited by Guest

I'm suprised how many players complain about shop's power.
As Jsakpc said, the deck follows the B&R list, and good builders found an extra-agressive list, and that works great.
People seem not to admit that a NON-blue deck wins. Where is the problem, i mean, really ?
Is ravager shop unbeatable ? Absolutly not. Is it really good ? Of course; but did it won all tournaments for years ?
Don't you think that an Oath deck can't beat shop ? I've watch the semi between Rich Shay and Pat Fehling, on Inferno Oath. On g1 Fehling kept his 7 hand with : Library,underground sea, Fow and probe. No oath; of course you can hope there is no wasteland or stripe mine, hope your opponent kept a non-agressive hand, hope you draw ancestrall on your lib activation, find G source+oath ...but that hardly happens.
I would really like to know if Brian Kelly would have kept this hand against ravager shop. IMO this hand was great ... against a blue deck.
On g2, Fehling controls ravager with needle, kills threats with grudge and harcasts Griselbrand, everything seemed good...but there was metamorph in Shay's hand. How good it must be to metamorph Griselbrand ! So it was really close but metamorph wins only because Shay was able to cast Chalice on 2. IMO both played well that game but Shay had magic gods by his side.

And this will be my conclusion : of couse Top8 players are really good, but other players are very good too, you need to be lucky to reach top8 and win a tournament, just look at Kelly's 1/4 : 2 dig and almost nothing to play(and compare with 14 draws on grisel activation and finding the answer to avoid a lethale attack of Fehling's grisel by flashbacking his grudge on metamorph).

@francois-f You are correct that shops has not won all the tournaments for years, However, Shops has been taking up 25%-50%(more at champs) of top8s from the last 2 years and shops won almost every single big event in the states over the last year. This type of consistency and performance proves that the deck is way too good.

last edited by Guest

@jsakpc said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

I understood some prefer blue vs blue all the day like in legacy, but it is vintage and kicking shop out of the top tier won't make the meta 'healthier'.

I suspect, though don't have hard data, that many "dissatisfied" vintage players are actually legacy players who started playing vintage out of prestige and to look like cool kids. As result, these players use blue decks because most of the cards in those decks are transferable between vintage and legacy. So choosing between adopting to a new to them format or insisting on changing the format, naturally they prefer the format to be changed to suit their preferences. Therefore, there is a notion that the Workshops deck is too strong and unbearable for the format.

last edited by Chronatog

@bobbyvictory said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@jsakpc Vintage has mishra's workshop + ancient tomb, modern has neither. THis increases the rate at which shops can dump their hand. Vintage also uses ballista.
YOur opponent either has the card they need in the first 3 turns or they don't. Hurkyl's doesn't help much at all since shops can drop it's entire hand again the following turn due to foundry inspector being busted. It literally only buy's 1-2 turns.

With respect, I have to disagree. Modern affinity is a turn-4-clock deck while vintage ravager aggro is a turn-3. And modern is a format where force of will, wasteland, time walk etc are illegal but in vintage we can play moxen ourselves. There is nothing about the tempo. Vintage TPS can win in turn 1. It is not the case that shop doesnt allow interaction but simply some players rather play magic on stack thank deal with the board. The proposition of shop being too broken, imho, is just a disguise of their preference.

@jsakpc Are you serious? Current Shops decks are based almost entirely on tempo. They don't have enough prison pieces to effectively function as a prison deck.

@chronatog This is elitist and frankly wrong. The notion that Workshops is too strong comes from 3 years of metagame data...

@francois-f You do realize that how often a deck wins is the important...That there has never been a deck printed that has been unbeatable or "won all the tournaments". Seriously...

last edited by ChubbyRain

@jsakpc said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@bobbyvictory said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@jsakpc Vintage has mishra's workshop + ancient tomb, modern has neither. THis increases the rate at which shops can dump their hand. Vintage also uses ballista.
YOur opponent either has the card they need in the first 3 turns or they don't. Hurkyl's doesn't help much at all since shops can drop it's entire hand again the following turn due to foundry inspector being busted. It literally only buy's 1-2 turns.

With respect, I have to disagree. Modern affinity is a turn-4-clock deck while vintage ravager aggro is a turn-3. And modern is a format where force of will, wasteland, time walk etc are illegal but in vintage we can play moxen ourselves. There is nothing about the tempo. Vintage TPS can win in turn 1. It is not the case that shop doesnt allow interaction but simply some players rather play magic on stack thank deal with the board. The proposition of shop being too broken, imho, is just a disguise of their preference.

I will grant you at least this much: it is true that current blue decks are softer against Shops than they need to be. Strong answers like By Force, Shattering Spree, Steel Sabotage, and Ingot Chewer have been sidelined for weaker but more flexible answers like Abrade. Solemnity and Energy Flux are terrors to play against but show up in far fewer sideboards than I expect. Library of Alexandria could be a Plains, Mountain, or Ancient Tomb.

Blue players also seem to not always be aware of how to play the matchup correctly. I've seen many players snap-Gush in response to Wasteland, only to fall back several turns in mana development and lose to my creatures + slight Sphere pressure. I've seen players snap-keep hands with Library on the draw and nothing else. That may be great vs other blue decks but it's suicide vs shops.

@chubbyrain This is exactly what I was trying to say, how a Turn 3 aggro deck trouble vintage, particularly this is a format we can play turn-1 decks and cards like lotus, moxen, A-call, time walk and such?

@jsakpc said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@chubbyrain This is exactly what I was trying to say, how a Turn 3 aggro deck trouble vintage, particularly this is a format we can play turn-1 decks and cards like lotus, moxen, A-call, time walk and such?

Shops is not just an aggro deck. That may be true of classic Affinity but is a gross mischaracterization of the strategic position of the Vintage Ravager shops decks. Chaining restricted spells in the first two turns is not trivial when your opponent plays T1 sphere effect, T2 Wasteland+Revoker.

@evouga I am not sure whether or not it is a misnomer, but at least it is an aggro deck in a wider sense (I believe tempo is a kind of aggro, there is seldom a 'pure' aggro deck in vintage or even in any format). For example, Eldrazi is an aggro for me notwithstanding playing TKS, null rod, Chalice and wasteland. I digress.

I just don't see the rationale why the shop is too good given it is now having a hard time to stop the opponent playing anything. Modern affinity is just an analogy (admittedly not perfect) invites discussions. Modern is a much slower format with a much smaller and weaker card pool but it can deal with a T4 aggro deck.

My all-time favourite is Grixis pyromancer which is no longer playable after restriction of probe and gush. I admit I may be biased against any (further) restriction. But I don't want to see vintage to become a 60-card edh.

@dice_box

I think you’re not giving Randy any sort of fair shake. If you watched his conversation with Rich Shay on the VSL, he was advocating for less change then Rich was.

https://youtu.be/uLQkR_1v15Y

I agree with most of this.

As a blue player (i enjoy just doing my own thing regardless of tiers, so i'm actually playing 4c 😕 ) who flubbed at Eternal Weekend, i realized it was a mistake playing 3 Misstep, 1 Pyro, and 1 Fluster main deck. It was a regular grind against blue decks and kind of a tossup who wins; you know, down to who gets restricted draw spells first and makes a couple key outplays. I performed pretty well against shops i believe (although i played 1 in the main event and 1 in a side event only) because i picked a little extra removal main and my SB was kind of stacked against shops/outcome. But my g1's were still nightmares.

I think my choices could have been better maindeck. There is more decks with islands than there are with Shop, but picking an overly effective card like Pyro just costs you against shop. Probably even Spell Snare was better than that.

Aside from making better selections, which would bring shops win rate down, i still think Shops is right on the edge of possibly being too powerful. It could stand yet another restriction i think. I don't believe Shop itself should be restricted, because there are still cards the deck plays that no other deck does. Unlike restricting Thorn (which i feel medium about), there are cards in Shop that can be restricted without hitting another deck. Ravager or Ballista, for example, would not hurt another deck. This way, we can keep shop decks. I am not sure if 1 Shop makes an archetype, especially not necessarily without an unrestriction.

@sovarius The issue with Spell Snare is it doesn't always hit the key cards in the mirror. You are right that Xerox really comes down to a battle of attrition, and so the key cards are generally those that create a substantial amount of card advantage. Things like Ancestral, Dig, Cruise, and Planeswalkers. Misstep stops Ancestral and protects your key cards from Pyroblast. Pyroblast hits almost all of them (exception being Sylvan Library and nonblue walkers). Flusterstorm is great when played well and the dream scenario is Dig in response to your Dig, counter both your Dig and Counterspell with Flusterstorm. People wouldn't play these cards if they weren't great in this matchup. You gain more in the Blue matchups than the increase you get from running Snares and Pierce against Shops (and having them in against Blue). It's a matter of rational deck building.

To everyone, there is room for discussion here on what can be done or should be done against Shops. It doesn't necessarily require hitting Shops, now. The current discussion is more complaining about people complaining or making irrelevant arguments like "the deck plays 5 black lotuses" or "it doesn't draw cards and doesn't kill turn 1". Believe it or not, I'm undecided on what should be restricted or if it should be restricted - the data from the challenges this month paints a different picture, but it's unclear if this is an overreaction to Shops (again, every deck is beatable and give other Vintage player's credit - they know how to beat it) and as the focus shifts back to blue, the equilibrium point for Shops returns to an unbalanced win percentage. What I really hate and find frustrating is bad arguments made repeatedly.

@chubbyrain Oh, don't get me wrong, i'm not saying it was great. I'm just saying i realize i would be better off with less dead cards for Shops than i am more efficient mirror answers. I'm not saying Snare is playable, i am using it as an example of a not really playable card i would have been about as happy with, but not dead vs Shop.

@mdkubiak I have not even seen this season, I was talking about his grandstanding from few seasons back. I have long since stopped watching him but the fact that he would still be on about it does not shock me at all.

The one I am thinking off he was complaining about Tomb and how it had to be talked down, but fucked if I can find that now. But if hes still complaining, label me not surprised.

@smmenen said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@dice_box said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

I have posted my views on this topic before here and little has changed in my view.

It's pretty funny that you linked to a post where I am quoted as saying "Shops are just much more powerful, flexible and adaptable than they have ever been."

Just noticed this, tried about 4 times to fix it. I know this is likely going to sound stupid but I could not get the page to always link to the right post. This site, as it is coded, I do not like it. I hope it is fixed now.

last edited by Dice_Box

@dice_box You're assuming again. He was not on about it. He was talking to Rich Shay about his #2 spot in Eternal Weekend and he was not complaining at all. If anything, he was defending Workshops.

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