@hrishi said in EW Meta and discussion.:

g at WOTC and going "FIX THIS!!!" and that probably drives more people away from wanting to participate than any lopsided metagame ever will.
With how quickly people call for restrictions and changes, the format changes way too quickly for any kind of natural change to take place. Granted, there is zero incentive for natural change because people are simply waiting for the next B&R announcement and netdecking to their heart's content until that point. I don't mean to say anything negative towards people netdecking, but when you copy existing decks, you're going to perpetuate their weaknesses and continue the same metagame going forward, MODO simply increases this effect.

Oh man, I thought I was the only person, that saw the results of EW and got excited about having a meta to build decks against! This is always my favorite part of the year, because it lets me really think about the larger universe of vintage and what is going on. I have been intrigued by people still trying to beat shops with snapcaster + spot removal despite the smaller number of draw spells post gush, and the transition of shops to being more aggressive, playing fewer spheres, and having cards that are better against spot removal.

This made me feel like it was more possible to play some of the bigger and more impactful anti shops cards (and in higher numbers) and still have a positive matchup against blue decks. I want to see more Melt down, energy flux, hurkyl's, by forces, etc paired with some spot removal to set up really devastating positions.

@garbageaggro Yeah, actually props to @13NoVa because I think his deck is very interesting (and I believe he said he built it with shops in mind). I know there's more in this direction, but with how often we see restrictions happen these days, people prefer to look to WOTC rather than considering anything else.

@garbageaggro said in EW Meta and discussion.:

This made me feel like it was more possible to play some of the bigger and more impactful anti shops cards (and in higher numbers) and still have a positive matchup against blue decks. I want to see more Melt down, energy flux, hurkyl's, by forces, etc paired with some spot removal to set up really devastating positions.

Truthfully, this for some reason seems to be a concept not many have grasped.

My sideboard was designed to use Needle to either Slow the Wastelands or the Machine Guns, depending on board state, use Wear/Tear, Disenchant, and Plowshares effectively to get to By Force for the blowout.

I still see so many people who don't build sideboards this way. 😞 I think this is what @Hrishi was talking about, as well.

@garbageaggro would it be unreasonable to suggest Moat as anti shops tech, for combo decks especially? Seems like their game plan is ground beats with a side of disruption. It may be too slow...

I had a great time at my first EW! Happy to get there Thursday to play in a trial. I had the hilarious/unfortunate experience of showing Andy my deck asking for advice and immediately being paired against him the next round, lol.

I lost a lot but learned an equal amount and hope to come better prepaired next year! I played an Esper Combo Pile with value Paradoxical and discovered how weak I was to the blue decks with red, specifically pyroblast and dack...

@gigasturtz, @brianpk80 was running a Magus of the Moat in his sideboard for Oath and I know he has done so in the past. Works really well for him and seems to have an effect on not only shops but other creature based decks. So there is definitely ground to stand on using Moat or its ilk.

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@gigasturtz Moat is interesting but there are two major issues 1) hangarback walker is starting to see more play, and if they can get you low, finding a way to sac walker means moat isn't helpful. 2) Walking ballista eventually beats moat, especially if they get you low enough because moat took a while to come into play. That isn't to say it is terrible or anything, if i were playing something like Landstill I might consider it more strongly?

@garbageaggro those are all good points for sure! My thought was for something like outcome/storm/combo. It might not entirely shut them down but it would certainly buy you a few turns to dig for pieces. The cmc also leads me down that path, since something with an aggressive manabase can push out 2ww fast enough for it to potentially matter.

@gigasturtz hmm, i mean for a lot of those that involves adding a color, but Paradoxical that is sort of interesting, I think typically they buy turns with things like Hurkyl's because they can win so quickly, but if you had a grindier paradoxical deck, that might make sense?

@garbageaggro hurkyls seems super weak right now with so many Foundry Inspectors running around. It feels like it's as good as fog in the shops matchup.

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So Paradoxical is pretty explosive in my experience, so instead of fog, think endstep hurkyl's my turn win?

There is a reason that i suggest it for combo decks, and not like mentor/xerox/jeskai or whatever you want to call it, it is harder to capitalize on the 1 turn that way, but paradoxical can take that turn and just win.

@garbageaggro that makes sense if the shops player gets their taxing effects out but it seems the archetype has rebalanced their split of pressure and tax to favor pressure since the restriction of thorn.

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@gigasturtz Yeah i mean if that is true (I think it is), I feel even more like paradoxical should win the race no? Like they are trying to kill you really fast and you get to play time walks in the form of hurkyl's?

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@garbageaggro that's definitely fair! i probably just need to adjust my build and get some more experience 🙂

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Paradoxical is a fine choice against Shops. It wasn't the Shops match that steers you away from that deck, but the saturation of Null Rod+Pyroblast decks out there. Fortunately, the Top 8 this year had zero Pyroblasts and it's easy to understand why--that blue on blue cannibalism that feels so cool on MTGO is destined for multiple losses in real life scenarios where Dredge, Shops, Oath, Eldrazi and so forth actually exist. (Newsflash to Pyroblast-maniacs--these archetypes do in fact... exist).

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