October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement
-
@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
You are correct, that is one of 2 turn 2 kills outside of foundry inspector. However, they both highly dependant on 2-3 restricted cards. I feel like the two turn 2 kills cited by you and Noble are both extremely extremely rare. Foundry inspector turn 2s are much more common than these since the only need 1 restricted card, black lotus, sol ring or mana crypt. In addition, The foundry inspector builds drop more threats while the slash panther/car t2 kill drops only 2 or 3 threats, thus making it easier to deal with long term. With that said, i'm still in the boat that inspector one of the proper restriction choices.
So prove that they aren't rarer. It isn't like this is hard, just go and do the analysis that says how common those turn 2 kills are. Come back when you have numbers.
-
@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
@jonhammack Foundry inspector nut draws are not of the same rarity.
So we go from "super rare" to "very rare"? Inspector does cool things, but I have never killed anyone with him on turn 2.
-
@bobbyvictory I feel like if I'm playing a broken combo deck like DPS, I should have to work my way through a bunch of countermagic. The deck is trying to do something degenerate and broken, and the more tools an opponent has to fight it, the better for them. I don't hear dredge players ever take issue with the amount of graveyard hate there is. They know they are doing something degenerate, and people need a way to fight their game plan.
I know some decks are restricted in their viability by MM. But that is true of all kinds of decks in every format. There is always some cool deck that just can't compete because of some other card in the format. Does not mean you can't play that deck, just it probably won't be top tier. You can play a ham sandwich in vintage if you want, just need to have realistic expectations against the top decks. Cards should only be restricted if they fundamentally ruin the format. MM does not feel that way to me. I know it warps a lot of the way decks play, but that is also true of FoW. I would keep MM as is in my opinion. But, like I said before I would be fine with it restricted as well. Just does not seem like a card worthy of restricting in vintage. The more cards available to fight broken combos, the better. Makes longer, more interesting games. -
@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
@aaron-patten Please sculpt a hand for me that proves your point if you are going to tell me i'm wrong. Give me an example of 2 workshops + 5 creatures, none of them being foundry inspector.
Actually, You can have any 7 cards that are played in the archetype except no foundry inspectors. You draw your card T1 being on the draw and then draw your card turn 2.
9 cards total. What is your opening hand and what are your t1/t2 cards. Show me a turn 2 win without inspector.You keep changing your story and editing the post to be more and more restrictive while inventing some irelative reason for dismissing every true statement that contradicts what you want to be true. It's not up to all of us to spend our time proving you wrong. You're not entitled to anyone's time; we have given it to you as a kindness. There are dozens of hands with even a single Mishra's Workshop that will easily win on turn 2 and of course they're not going to use cards that are only played in the current "archetype" because the archetype will play slightly different cards if yet another random artifact gets restricted in the name of preserving Mishra's Workshop. This is of course also completely irrelevant since the deck doesn't need several dozen ways to win on turn 2 when it can easily win on turn 3 ever more ways with disruption and even some immunity to many spot removal spells. The speed of Workshop decks has only become an issue recently because it has lost Thorn of Amethyst and people are trying to win faster to compensate. The goal of Workshop decks has always been to win before the opponent can meaningfully interact it's just that that win used to look like a hard lock under spheres and strip/waste effects. That strategy was more broadly effective but it's not the most efficient it just works against the greatest number of decks. How many strategies can win a game without casting spells? Not that many. In either case the strategy is to proactively remove the opponent's ability to interact by either locking them out completely ala past iterations of the deck or more recently just ending the game (same result).
A hand of only seven cards that wins on turn two assumes that there is no relevant draw so even on the play a person will have eight cards to play with (not that the eighth card is necessary). According to your parameters a mull to 6 is still often a turn 2 win. I do like your puzzle though so in the spirit of the comments above I've come up with a hand using only seven cards (still possible after a mulligan) that doesn't use any restricted cards and also wins on turn 2 without Slash Panther and, just for fun, uses almost no cards from the current iteration of Mishra's Workshop decks to demonstrate just how deep the relevant card pool really is.
Mishra's Workshop
Torper Orb
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Cranial Plating
Lupine Prototype
Mox Opal
Grim Monolith
Please try not to take any of what I say as an insult. I'm not trying to insult you at all, just offering up some empirical information.Yet another straw man burns as Mishra slips quietly into the night.
-
@aaron-patten I don't think i'm entitled to anyone's time, however, if someone is going to take the time to refute a statement on a public forum, they should probably provide reason(an example of reason in the scenario earlier would be to provide an actual example). The whole point of this forum is for discussions. Explaining why is what creates a discussion. Simple No or Yes answers don't really provide any details and questions that can be best answered are probably more suitable to their very own thread entitled "simple questions, simple answers".
With that said, I do appreciate people chiming in. On the other hand, It wouldn't phase me if some people didn't. So either way, no harm/no foul.
When someone brings a new piece of information to me, like in the case of the 2 examples above, I have to analyze it. New things may be learned from it. That's exactly what I did, I analyzed the information. I looked for the strengths, weaknesses and enablers. Of course this may or may not cause some to change their stance. At the very least, someone would take it into consideration, which I did. I still stand that Foundry inspector should get restricted based on the fact it has a greater impact than just the t2, substantially more common explosive opener when compared to the other two T2 examples provided.
Here is why.
-Foundry Inspector nullifies your own spheres and your opponent is still affected by them. It makes the setback 1 sided. Shops already has sol lands, workshops and ring/crypt to negate their own spheres, Shops doesn't need more.
-Foundry Inspector makes recovering after a Hurkyl's EZPZ, you just drop almost all if not your entire hand the following turn.
-Foundry Inspector makes opposing wastelands have less of an impact on the gameThe card is better than most think and definitely should be restricted.
On an unrelated, somewhat related note, Here is what LSV had to say about shops incase you haven't given it a watch.
-
I won't claim to speak for anyone, but I'd rather see how the metagame responds than immediately moving to "time to restrict something" every time we have a large tournament.
It does not matter if it is an artifact, part of the Workshop picture, a blue draw spell, or whatever.
I'd go so far to argue that we've not had a truly degenerate metagame since Control Slaver was king. I'd argue that vintage could be fun in that metagame.
I'll accept that the format may be better off with certain cards restricted since then. I don't think frequent restrictions make the format better.
I absolutely think that frequent restrictions cater to the mtgo contingent of Vintage, Whether that is good or bad is a wash, but it understandable makes those moving paper cards around a little gun shy due to the investment of time and resources to constantly adjust/adapt to a b/r announcement every three months.
-
@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
-Foundry Inspector nullifies your own spheres and your opponent is still affected by them. It makes the setback 1 sided. Shops already has sol lands, workshops and ring/crypt to negate their own spheres, Shops doesn't need more.
-Foundry Inspector makes recovering after a Hurkyl's EZPZ, you just drop almost all if not your entire hand the following turn.
-Foundry Inspector makes opposing wastelands have less of an impact on the gameTo be clear i think blue players are losing to shops because they are building their decks wrong, please see examples of what I think building your deck right looks like earlier in this thread. But to refute above:
-Workshop nullifies your own spheres and your opponent is still affected by them. It makes the setback 1 sided. Shops already has sol lands, inspector, and ring/crypt to negate their own spheres, Shops doesn't need more.
-Workshops make recovering after a Hurkyl's EZPZ, you just drop almost all if not your entire hand the following turn.
-Workshops makes opposing creature removal have less of an impact on the game, because those cards don't affect your best mana accelerant. -
@garbageaggro You are correct, however, why does shops need an extra 4 ways that is also a threat to do this? Mishra's Workshop is currently on the chopping block and will probably get axed. I think we are better off axing inspector/misstep. Are you suggesting it's better to just restrict Mishra's Workshop?
Also, a single inspector can compensate for more than a workshop depending what cards are bounced from hurkyl's.
Example:
Boardstate after hurkyls
Mishra's workshop
Hand
Mox Inspector four-five 2 drops ancient tomb
top of library
InspectorMy turn, Draw inspector
Tap workshop, cast inspector. Play Ancient Tomb, mox, 2nd inspector, play every other card in hand.
You can't do stuff like this unless you have at least 1 inspector. Even if you had 2 shops and a mox, you aren't replaying your entire hand after a hurkyl's.
Inspector is stronger than most think.
-
@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
@garbageaggro You are correct, however, why does shops need an extra 4 ways that is also a threat to do this? Mishra's Workshop is currently on the chopping block and will probably get axed. I think we are better off axing inspector/misstep. Are you suggesting it's better to just restrict Mishra's Workshop?
I don't think he's suggesting that we restrict anything. There are a lot of people who are ready to wait and see instead of knee-jerking a restriction.
-
@cutlex I hear the "knee-jerking" reaction comment quite often. We've had 2 full years of shops being dominant, almost 3. Shops has won just about every single major tournament this year. The paper meta is for champs is finally mimicking MTGO when it comes to MWP/Win rates. This is not anything new to the scene so labeling player reactions calling for restrictions as "knee-jerking" couldn't be any further from the truth. We even have a metagame analysis showing proof of how dominant shops is.
-
@bobbyvictory Thorn of Amethyst and Monastery Mentor were restricted less than two months ago. Blue decks haven't even had a chance to get their feet under them yet, and, as @JACO has pointed out, were grossly misbuilt for this Champs. Vintage is a format about slow changes and I know there is a large segment of the population that is sick of huge changes looming.
Not every metagame problem should be solved with a restriction. Perhaps people simply need more time to figure out how to beat the robot menace, like has happened for years.
-
@cutlex MTGO has sped up the development of the vintage metagame substantially, in fact, the changes pretty much start there and trickle down. They've trickled into champs clearly.
On a side note, All shops has to do is build with 4 hangarbacks and 4 precursor golem main deck and the whole mass sweepers/value-snapcaster mage plan gets out swarmed.
-
@cutlex said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
@garbageaggro You are correct, however, why does shops need an extra 4 ways that is also a threat to do this? Mishra's Workshop is currently on the chopping block and will probably get axed. I think we are better off axing inspector/misstep. Are you suggesting it's better to just restrict Mishra's Workshop?
I don't think he's suggesting that we restrict anything. There are a lot of people who are ready to wait and see instead of knee-jerking a restriction.
I don't think we need to restrict anything. I do think blue decks are built incorrectly to fight shops at the moment. I was just trying to show you that the things you wrote aren't a good argument for why we should restrict inspector instead of shops.
So, i think a lot of people that have been talking about built correclty have been talking about a mix of point removal and things like energy flux, since shops is at its worst at preventing you from casting those slightly more expensive, but better answers with 3 fewer lock pieces, that have been replaced for the most part with more threats.
-
@bobbyvictory I think MTGO right now is an example of why nothing needs restricting, especially from shops. Shops is not over dominating on-line like it did at champs. It is quite a diverse meta on-line right now. I think we are in a really good spot right now. Shops is actually fun to play against, as they don't tend to lock you out as much as they used to. They are aggro as hell now, but that's fine. No different than playing burn in legacy or modern. They are trying to get you dead quick. They still have lock pieces, but it is not as consistent as it was. Especially multiple lock pieces.
There is nothing screaming restrict me like there was with Mentor. -
Actually, I would even argue that another un-restriction would be nice. I think bargan was a good move, and is a fun deck to play. Windfall or memory jar seem like good candidates to me. Fast bond as well as long as MM remains unrestricted.
-
@mourningpalace Shops' mwp has continued to increase. I remember when it sat around the 55% mark and players were like "omg, over 50% mwp, imba". The trend within the last 6-8 weeks is a 56%-62% MWP. That's insane. At what point do you admit that Mishra's Workhops is too strong? It's the only deck that gets a 4 reusable black lotuses that don't even need to be cast. I mean, cards like dig through time that take time to get up and running are on the restricted list. Is dig through time better than mishra's workshop? People turn a blind eye and as shit hits the fan over and over the player's get blamed for their reactions? Shops is OP, every shops player knows it and they use the "Oh I'll quit vintage" argument if it were to get restricted. We all know they'll just deal with it. Get it over with already.
-
@BobbyVictory your rhetoric is insane and fear I've been successfully trolled.
@mourningpalace said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:
Actually, I would even argue that another un-restriction would be nice. I think bargan was a good move, and is a fun deck to play. Windfall or memory jar seem like good candidates to me. Fast bond as well as long as MM remains unrestricted.
[[Windfall]] is terrifying from a "turn 1 on the play" standpoint, but I was very worried about [[Gifts Ungiven]] and [[Yawgmoth's Bargain]], too. Maybe it's fine? What deck would even use it? DPS? PO?
-
@cutlex I don't think any deck would run 4, as a lot of existing decks that would run it don't run all the draw 7's as it is. Thats why I think it would be fine. Same with Jar. Could open up something new.
-
@bobbyvictory I don't play shops, so I am not one of those that have a vested interest in the card. I just don't think it is that bad, or any more OP that many other vintage decks. Vintage is supposed to be OP and broken shit. That's what's fun about it. So, I just don't think you and I can agree on this one.
-
@bobbyvictory I love seeing Precursor Golem when I'm running Smash to Smithereens.
