@rageflash Plague Sliver is basically the same card (the interaction with other Slivers not being reasonably probable in relevant circumstances), and Grinning Demon is probably more like a 4... more power and more pain mean you probably need to build a different deck with it.
All that said, you're totally right. These guys are not on the list yet because I have not gone beyond ABUR yet. I plan to do that, though, so the list eventually goes over the entire Reserve List.
@hierarchnoble Amen on the wall of text thing! It goes without saying that the wall of text is my go-to shtick. I am NOT-O-K with people trying to horn in on my angle. That goes for everyone around here. Just watch yourselves.
@topical_island Yeah, can't have too many people putting thought into their posts. I mean, our President has shown us that you only need 128 characters for anything worth saying, amiright?
@maximumcdawg i just realized that you haven't gone beyond ABUR; sorry man. : ( Other additions (i hope i get this right this time) are Concentrate and Harmonize for Ancestral Recall and Time Warp for Time Walk
@hierarchnoble I understand. It's a risky topic. I actually don't think anyone has been too fired up in this thread, which is awesome! Let's talk data!
And you are remembering correctly about Reverberate. It happened on October 8, 2013. Here's a link for ya:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/63443937621/hey-while-were-talking-about-the-spirit-of-the
But, just a few days prior, Mark also said: "The Reserved List actually says we won’t print identical cards."
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/63119125714/were-trying-not-to-break-the-spirit-of-the
And, more recently, Mark is at least willing to play around with the concept and consequences of non-functional substitutes as shown here: (FN)
https://twitter.com/maro254/status/812042770957275137
The "Spirit" of the RL, to the extent it's even a thing, appears to be applied in an ad-hoc way and is not subject to strict definition. As far as I can tell, it's a feeling-based test about whether a card is just "too close" to another. But, as examples like Helldozer show, even that is not a barrier to printing reasonable substitutes (even improvements) on RL cards.
FN = You can tell he's being glib and talking off the cuff because his idea, Snow Duals, actually does violate the stated RL policy. So, we don't take this TOO seriously, I don't think. He's just thinking out loud.
https://twitter.com/maro254/status/812042770957275137
Do Snow Duals fix the problem or do the best decks just have both?
They have some sort of strange internal deliberations that they refuse to discuss outside WotC at all, but MaRo has said repeatedly that he hates that Reserve List. If he's asking the question in the first place, advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.
@ambivalentduck said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.
Exactly! Kind of. The place you need to put your energy is into new cards that substitute for RL cards. That is precisely the point I'm making in this thread!
However - Snow Duals specifically don't work. They violate the printed text of the RL. Remember, it says:
A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness
So, if you add the supertype Snow to a Tundra:
Does it have the same card type? Yep.
Same subtype? Yep.
Same abilities? Yep.
Same mana cost? Yep.
Same power and toughness? Yep, and yep.
The supertype never enters into it.
But if they supported it tribal duals would be legal because it's a card type not a super type or tub type.
Elf palace
Forest swamp tribal elf
Totally legit under current rules. Mostly better unless people are casting destroy all elf catds
@maximumcdawg said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
@ambivalentduck said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.
Exactly! Kind of. The place you need to put your energy is into new cards that substitute for RL cards. That is precisely the point I'm making in this thread!
However - Snow Duals specifically don't work. They violate the printed text of the RL. Remember, it says:
A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness
So, if you add the supertype Snow to a Tundra:
Does it have the same card type? Yep.
Same subtype? Yep.
Same abilities? Yep.
Same mana cost? Yep.
Same power and toughness? Yep, and yep.The supertype never enters into it.
If you were right they'd have never printed Prairie Stream. Or do you count the drawback as an ability?
Also, Snow Duals are obviously too close. But Legendary Duals are not IMO.
@fsecco said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
@maximumcdawg said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
@ambivalentduck said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.
Exactly! Kind of. The place you need to put your energy is into new cards that substitute for RL cards. That is precisely the point I'm making in this thread!
However - Snow Duals specifically don't work. They violate the printed text of the RL. Remember, it says:
A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness
So, if you add the supertype Snow to a Tundra:
Does it have the same card type? Yep.
Same subtype? Yep.
Same abilities? Yep.
Same mana cost? Yep.
Same power and toughness? Yep, and yep.The supertype never enters into it.
If you were right they'd have never printed Prairie Stream. Or do you count the drawback as an ability?
Also, Snow Duals are obviously too close. But Legendary Duals are not IMO.
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding me, or I'm not being clear. I am not saying that Snow Duals would be "too close." I am saying that they violate the strict, black-and-white test set out by the RL. Once again: the specific language of the RL prohibits reprinting "functionally identical cards." That term is defined as follows:
A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness.
So, if you want to brainstorm a potential new printing, you must ask these questions:
For each card on the RL:
- Does this new card have the same type?
- Does this new card have the same subtype?
- Does this new card have the same abilities?
- Does this new card have the same mana cost?
- Does this new card have the same power?
- Does this new card have the same toughness?
If the answer to all of those questions is "Yes," then the card may not be printed. End, full stop. We're done. There's no debate. So, whether or not a card has a new supertype or is in a premium form or whatever is just never even relevant. (Since Legendary is a supertype, too... you can do the math.)
As to Prairie Stream, that is fine because you can answer "No" to question 3. It has different abilities, just like Steam Vents does. You may consider them "drawbacks," but that is a value judgment; the printed card text defines various abilities which you might see as good or bad.
Now, if you really want to talk about what is "too close" even if it does pass this test, that's the dark and shadowy world of the "Spirit" of the Reserve List which I can't even venture to comment on except to crinkle my nose like I smelled something bad.
I know wizards will never do this, but here is what is would recommend if I had any say in the matter (which I don't)
People really only seem to want the duals re-printed or removed from the list. Or at least that is the primary focus for getting rid of the list.
I would recommend reprinting the duals as WHITE bordered reprints/promos. This would still allow the black border duals to retain high value for collectors, while allowing people more access to tournament playable duals. Seems like it would be a good compromise.
I like this Cdawg. I always think about this kind of thing.
How on earth are you missing Brainstorm for Ancestral Though? 
Also, i very much and sincerely doubt Angus has anything to do with Forcefield. They are only similar in that they can save you some life, and a million cards do that.
@fsecco said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
If you were right they'd have never printed Prairie Stream. Or do you count the drawback as an ability?
Also, Snow Duals are obviously too close. But Legendary Duals are not IMO.
Legend is also a supertype, also does not work. And like Cdawg describes, yes the other text on Stream makes it very different (functionally) than Tundra.
I just thought of a good shell for new duals that make them similar to Legendary Duals.
Imagine this:
Land - Plains Island
<Card name> comes into play tapped unless it's the only land you control.
EDIT:
This feels better in Modern than Eternal since you need to fetch basics first a lot in Legacy and Vintage. So it could actually be:
"Land - Plains Island
<Card name> comes into play tapped unless it's the only nonbasic land you control"
so you can fetch basics first against Wastelands.
@mourningpalace said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
I know wizards will never do this, but here is what is would recommend if I had any say in the matter (which I don't)
People really only seem to want the duals re-printed or removed from the list. Or at least that is the primary focus for getting rid of the list.
I would recommend reprinting the duals as WHITE bordered reprints/promos. This would still allow the black border duals to retain high value for collectors, while allowing people more access to tournament playable duals. Seems like it would be a good compromise.
I completely respect your opinion here, and it's a common one, but this is exactly the kind of thinking I'm trying to discourage. The idea that we need to get the specific cards on the RL reprinted is toxic, because WotC CANNOT do this. There's no point in wasting time thinking about ways to get Tundra specifically reprinted. It just won't happen.
HOWEVER... there's not this kind of existential barrier to doing what @fsecco says. Just add abilities to cards. Make them different from the RL counterparts. This is super easy to do, in theory. Add "When Supertundra enters the battlefield, each player may Scry 1." Boom, there you go, no RL problems.
Except, it's not that easy. The really difficult part with lands is this: How do you print new cards that are legitimate replacements or competition with ABUR duals -- not just strictly worse versions - without being completely bonkers broken?
Luckily, the barrier to printing non-functional substitutes of RL cards is not the RL itself. It's a design and development challenge.
@Sovarius The reason I didn't list Brainstorm is that, for me, it's actually too different. It's not suggesting you are drawing 3 cards for 1 mana like the other versions. But, I admit that it might be best to list it as a "1," since it certainly harkens back to Recall. Perhaps I'm just too used to thinking about them as tactically so different that I'm overthinking it.
They probably need to be a bit worse, because the true duals are actually ridiculously good.
This is probably as close as you could come
Not tundra
Land island plains
If you control a tundra lose the game
Almost the same, but it is technically worse since a tundra player could theoretically side in donate in the "mirror"
@walking-dude said in The Reserve List - The Reddest Red Herring:
They probably need to be a bit worse, because the true duals are actually ridiculously good.
Do they? That's the design challenge.
Just add an extra effect that's mostly irrelevant like. If ~ entered the battlefield from you hand gain 1 life.
@benjamin_berry Ah, yes, but now the issue is whether someone who can run 8 tundra has a leg up over someone who does not. With duals, Ive seen a lively debate over this.
The problem is more apparent with, say, Moxen. How do you crack THAT one?
That's easy, from a buisiness/lawsuit perspective. You ban them.
