Alright, now that Bargain is unrestricted lets talk about this in the context of a TPS like ritual based Storm shell. Yawgmoth's Bargain is one of the most powerful draw engines ever printed, if not the most powerful if it is already on the battlefield. A resolved bargain often times can draw about 14 cards at instant speed, it clearly is cabaple as a central engine that can power the whole deck.

  • How many Bargains would you actually want to play? After drawing a single bargain, every other one you get is a dead card. I don't think playing a full playset is a good idea, even if you want to build a deck that relies on resolving one every single game. It clearly needs testing but 2 bargains in a shell with a bunch of tutors or 3 in a shell that really wants to draw one naturally, seems plausible.

  • How much life is there to pay? After the restriction of Gitaxian Probe i cut my Cabal Therapies from my Deck and replaced them with Thoughtseizes, i liked the change then, but in the context of a Bargain powered deck, iam not sure that i want to play about 2 thoughtseizes, paying 4 life, before resolving a bargain and drawing 4 less cards. How much life would you want to guarantee a win after resolving bargain, and how can we build the deck in a way that we always maximize the power of bargain by minimizing our life loss. A second Tenrils in the main is not unheard of, and this might come in handy as lifegain to set up a big Bargain powered turn. What can we replace the thought seizes with? More Defence Grids maindeck or maybe even Collective Brutality? The lifegain of the Collective brutality might even come in handy, and discarding extra Bargains is rarely a bad idea. 2 Mana for a discard spell is a ton though.

  • 6 Mana is a lot, how can you modify the deck that you can reliably resolve a bargain in almost every situation? Since i havee put a playset of Dark Petition in my deck i upped the count of Cabal Rituals from 1 to 2. Bargain might demand to up the count to 3 or even to the full playset. What other options are there?

  • What to cut? If you want to build a deck for wich the main path to victory is via a Yawgmoth's Bargain, what do we not need anymore? Cutting expensive tutors might very well be the most obvious option. Drawing 12 cards in a turn should find you what you need without having to play 6 tutors in your deck. You also wouldn't need many tutors to find the bargain, if you have, lets say, 3 in the deck. I think cutting Dark Petitions is a possibility.

  • Apart from having to cast Bargain, which will use a lot of resources from a turn, you also would probably want to win in the very same turn. This is definitely possible if you have enough life left, but everybody knows the frustration of drawing 10 cards and then fizzling because you just didn't find mana and already used your landdrop. Since this will be our main path to victory how can we make sure that fizzling is as rarely a occurrence as possible.

A list could maybe look like this:
alt text

This ofcourse is a very early draft and untested apart from gold fishing, what are your thoughts on this?
EDIT: i updated the decklist in this post.

last edited by Aelien

Bargain is a card you really will only want 2 of. Drawing multiples is dead, including when you draw them off Necropotence. Also, Mental Misstep is possibly even more important now than it was before - so resolving Rituals is going to be difficult.

Lastly, Draw 7s are abyssmal.

I think lists that are gonna run 3-4 Bargains should now also run Unmask and Contagion. This gives you creature removal for hatebear decks (take that Thalia and Revoker!) and provides discard versus control (derpstep cant hit Unmask.....) while giving you something to do with your extra Bargains/Necro you draw, and being "free". I dont have a list yet, but mine would definitely include those 2 cards.

last edited by Serracollector

As someone whose played quite a lot of storm in years gone past there are a few things I see that I would instantly change just based on new printings.

Draw 7's are weak, you already have enough artifacts to support paradoxical outcome so why aren't we trying that over those?

Based on having so many artifact mana the first Null Profusion Far outweighs the third Bargain.

4 duress to me seems wrong I personally have allows preferred a 2/2 split between thoughtseize and now with even even new hatebears available this split seems even better now. On the protection subject no mental missteps is ok as your playing 2 defense grids but I still think id want them somewhere.

4 Cabal rituals is excessive 2 was always my max. There is not alot this deck does with mox land Crit outside of Necro/Duress + Duress/Seize.

I like having ponder but having preordain seems wrong. In a list like this I hardly ever want to be using T1 for preordain when I could have Gifts/FoF to get max value of of my rituals + a mox and yet still I wouldn't be doing either of those over a T1 hand disruption effect.

You definitely want tink/bot or ETW having only 1 Drills with no burning wish is quite a liability.

last edited by Fisken

@13NoVa Missteps always where a big problem since its printing, i am not sure how this could actually get an even bigger problem for rituals based decks, since MM is already a 4 of in most blue decks and even a lot of non blue decks like pitch dredge.
It is surely one of the greatest reasons why ritual based storm is struggling, but its not making the deck unplayable. Draw 7s are not as powerful as they where, i agree. They only feel safe when you have a defense grid on the board. I will cut Wheel from the deck along with the red mana support, and see how that goes.

@Fisken While i was brewing with PO Storm as soon as the card was revealed and i adore the strategy, i would like to test this is a deck that uses Bargain as the engine instead of PO. If i would want to play Paradoxical, i would add Mox Opals to the deck, and at this point you could just go all out and play blue based PO Storm without rituals, since i think it is the better option anyway for now (depending on how much null rods are around in the meta).
On the topic of Duress: 4 of them are just enough, i would play 6-8 if i could. Even with the dampening of their power since MM was printed, they are still probably the best tool to protect your plans from multiple counterspells. Thoughtseize is awesome, and i played 3 of them together with 4 duress after probe was restricted, replacing Cabal therapies. You are correct in that they excel against creature based disruption prevalent in hatebears and eldrazi, however the life loss might be a very real cost if the aim of the deck is to win by drawing a critical mass of cards via bargain.
I prefer the method of running discard based disruption opposed to running missteps myself just to defend against opposing missteps. A higher blue count might allow to run FoW and Misstep based disruption, but i feel more comfortable with a high count of discard.
4 Cabal Rituals is a lot, i agree, i never ran more than 2 as well, i actually only ran 1 until i started using Dark Petition, where producting a initial high count of mana is relevant. When upping the amount of mana that needs to be produced from 5 to 6 (and not getting anything of it back, at least initially) think additional mana sources are required. I think 3 might be a more conservative count for now.
Tink/Bot is one of the most unsafe and all in win cons currently playable, which has the potential to even backfire a lot. I would expect white to go down in the meta and with it Swords, but Dack Fayden will probably be as prevelant as ever. Also runnign Tinker solely for Bot is just bad, when i played tinker i ran the package with Memory Jar with Bot just beeing a secondary option. Without Memory Jar (and i am currently not planning to play that card, as you said yourself, that draw 7s are not as good as they where in the past) Tinker and Bot are not cards i would like to give 2 slots in the deck. I ran just 1 Tendrils for about 3 years now, and it proved to be great, however that was in a deck with more tutoring and less reliance on actually drawing the card. A second Tendrils might be necessary not only for reliably finding it, but also to maybe cast a mini tendrils to set up a big turn with a bunch of life to draw cards with.
I added Preordains after the restriction of Probe, and i agree, they are not incredible. While they are sometimes really helpful to find what you need, it doesn't feel good to cast one turn 1 in a deck like this. I kind of want to cut them, but i am not sure what to bring in instead.
@Serracollector Unmask is a great replacement for thoughtseize, and much better than collective brutality (i never liked that card in vintage anyway) I am not sure about Contagion, i may test one one in the sideboard, but against shops decks i will handle the revokers with hurkyl's and against hatebears (at least the white ones) i usually used massacre in the past. Still might be worth a try.

For now i will stay with 3 Bargains, but i am not opposed to cutting 1 for another tutor. In reality all of this is just theory crafting as i wasn't able to test the deck yet.
Thanks for the initial feedback, i have made following changes as a result of it:
Cut: 1 Badlands, 1 Cabal Ritual, 1 Collective Brutality, 1 Wheel of Fortune.
Add: 1 Underground Sea, 2 Unmask, 1 Tendrils of Agony.
I also added a Sideboard.

last edited by Aelien

Isn't Preordain pretty bad here? Why would you pay mana to draw a card?

I don't think there's a cap on number of Bargains if your deck is designed to put it into play. I would definitely start with four and try to make it work until it's proven to not be good.

I agree with the above claims that Draw7s are bad and would like to add that Paradoxical Outcome is also bad. Mainly because it's a big target. Being reliant on artifacts and a big target is not good. That's why Rituals are the way to go. Not only faster but harder to disrupt since the Jeskai Tempo deck seems displaced and there are less Thorns around.

last edited by Guest

@desolutionist Yeah, as i said above, i am not a fan of the preordains either, but iam not sure what to replace them with. Somehow i would like to have more fast mana in here, but iam not sure what.

@desolutionist Why is preordain bad here? Isn't there something to be said for setting up your draws, especially in a deck that runs a mix of a lot of mana, defense, and pay off spells? Would you play Ponder as a 4 of if it were legal? Prior to the Ponder ban, there were UB non gush storm decks running the full set of Ponders.

I actually came to something pretty close when exploring the idea of maximizing bargain, with a few minor differences.

Unmask is really bad, just worse than FOW without the upside of being able to react on the draw or to a topdeck. This deck would rather have thoughtseize.

Chain of vapor md is totally unessecary seeing as no one is currently gunning for this deck and White eldrazi is no longer a threat in the metagame due to losing thorn.

2nd tendrils is just strictly worse than playing another copy of Petition, Having a Strong Bargain plan and a strong petition plan means that your deck will be hedged against grave hate, low life totals/pithing needle effects.

Based on the presence of Outcome and other fast combo decks in the format, a 1 of Flusterstorm can be pretty good as a versatile one mana protection spell. It also works pretty well in conjunction with defense grid to deny the opponent their one opportunity to counter a spell per turn.

Preordain is a fine card in this deck but the blue mana cost is definitely something not to be underestimated, I don't know if the second copy is better than having top in your deck

31 mana sources is too many, So i would try to trim 1-2.

LED is god awful seeing as it can force your hand into blowouts and it doesn't help you cast Y bargain, the 4thCabal ritual is still better.

The 13th land md is not necessary in a built for speed ritual deck, especially when mana denial becomes less prevalent in the meta.

Lotus petal is relatively underwhelming as well, especially when many decks bring in Stony postboard as their way to fight combo.

It is not impossible to develop a storm list with Show and Tell as a blue seething song.

I think that Show and Tell is an easy way to actually get Bargain in play with little card/ mana investment. My only concern is, if it's your only/ main draw engine, playing against shops with Revoker and possibly Sorcerous Spyglass once Ixalan comes out. At that point playing a secondary draw engine like Necropotence or Griselbrand is something to look into, but may require you to play Dark Ritual. Chrome Mox becomes somewhat playable as well since you can use it to pitch extra Bargains or Show and Tells for mana. Even playing Paradoxical Outcome is fine as a secondary means to draw cards since you'll likely want to max out whatever artifact mana you play. I think I would start with something like this...

Black Lotus
Chrome Mox
Grim Monolith
Lotus Petal
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
4 Mox Opal
Sol Ring
Sensei's Divining Top

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Gitaxian Probe
4 Paradoxical Outcome
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
Hurkyl's Recall
Chain of Vapor
Mystical Tutor
4 Show and Tell

Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
3 Yawgmoth's Bargain
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
Tolarian Academy
2 Island

last edited by myk

@smnowako said in Yawgmoth's Storm:

@desolutionist Why is preordain bad here? Isn't there something to be said for setting up your draws, especially in a deck that runs a mix of a lot of mana, defense, and pay off spells? Would you play Ponder as a 4 of if it were legal? Prior to the Ponder ban, there were UB non gush storm decks running the full set of Ponders.

I don't play Preordain or Ponder. Just use the mulligan to set up your hand. There are a lot of 5 card hands that are better than a 7 w/ Ponder. Turn 1 Ponder just isn't impressive and doesn't do enough against any deck. Dredge? Shops? Combo? Outcome? I don't want turn 1 Ponder against any of those.

last edited by Guest

Hey, sorry I'm a little late to the discussion, but couldn't you do something kinda similar to Necrospike? You except instead of 4 Necropotence, run 4 Yawgmoth's Bargain? That way you could run thoughtseize, unmask, pay a bunch of life to the bargain, remove excess bargains and unnecessary discard to gain life for free by casting soulspike, then finishing by storm off with rituals fast Mana and Tendrils? For instance you hit a turn 1 or two bargain bay 16-17 life, you fire off two soulspikes, pay more life to bargain make 4 Mana with rituals and such and only have to have like storm 5 or six with tendtils? Just a thought, sorry if you guys think I'm an idiot lol.

Soul spike is an interesting card. I think you can make a similar argument in favor of running multiple tendrils to my mind. I think a bargain deck with mini tendrils available probably up its win % at least a bit, since you aren't as worried about casting it just to draw more cards when you need to at like 6 storm.

I would try a single soulspike before adding an additional tendrils, due to the fact it's no mana spent and can delete a troublesome critter. Nice.

How many times in your build with 4 Shows is Bargain better than Griselbrand? Especially game 1? In which matchups? When a sphere player puts revoker in and stones Bargain you still have a 7/7 Demon. If you've been aggroed down to a low life title they both suffer. Certainly below 8 is an important number.

Edit: Have you weighed the benefit of having 2-3 griselbrands as it relates to being able to side Oath of Druids?

last edited by nedleeds

Well the necro spike list was something like
Some lands
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Demonic consultation
4 Necropotence
4 soulspike
4 Force
4 daze
4 Lotus Petal
4 tendrils
4 unmask
I don't remember if this is exactly the list, but the point of the deck was to find and play necro asap pay a bunch more life than you needed, then use soulspike to done them for 4 to 8 dmg then you just keep a hand that can storm out for the rest protected wother force/daze/unmask. Bargain costs 6 but we can run lotus and other moxen, maybe ancient tomb city of traitors or something? Try and do something similar to what the old necrospike lists were doing. Again just a thought.

last edited by SquirtMcGirt

Hi guys, I'm italian vintage player and next weekend I'll partecipate to Ovinotournaments event: 4 days of mtg eternal formats in Milan. My intention is to play a Storm Deck TPS-based spicy with a several list of bombs, in this case the good news from Wotc about Yawgmoth's Bargain encourage me to build a competitive deck counting on these. During last week I've complete an hard serial of testing against aggro-control deck (like Solution 5-color, very aggressive and disruptive) and other Storm deck like Paradoxical. The results were very impressive: won several games against the first and simply destroyed the second.

My actual list is this:
0_1506270978452_Senza titolo-2.jpg

Found it on web repository:

At first, I'd have played somenthing like Show and Tell + Yawgmoth's Bargain but I didn't like the fact of my enemy can improve in front of my eyes cards like Revoker (MUD) or others creature spells (Leovold, Kambal etc). My decision was to play without FoW but the presence of so many strong cards in the formats push me to reinstate them (Defense Grid in side). I choose a mana base that includes a green mana (Tropical Island) to put in side Abrupt Decay and others helpful tools.
I hope my list will please you, or maybe you can start from it to enrich the discussion and evolve the real deck of vintage: TPS.
My best regards, Stefano

last edited by MrAnderson

@mranderson quite the interesting List you got there with a bunch of cards and choices that are unusual or haven't seen much play in a while.
14 lands seems to me as a lot, how often do you fight flooding and is the high blue count in the lands (2 basic islands topical) a problem?
1 Duress and 3 Thoughtseize does not seem wrong in a world with Leovolds and other creatues which can seriously mess up your game plan, but is the life loss coming with it a problem while relying on Necro and Bargain as your primary draw engines?
3 Fatal Pushes, 2 of them in the main deck, wow! Thats a ton of creature removal for this archetype, is your meta that creature based?
Is there any reason why you play Grim Tutor over Dark Petition? In my experience DP is in most cases the slightly better tutor.
Together with cards like Top, Mystical Tutor, Merchant scroll and 3 Preordains (why no Ponder?) you chose a slower, even slightly controlling, route over a explosive build. Do you think a slower shell is the correct way to play with the Bargain package?

@Aelien good questions and thank you for the reply. I played many years Storm Deck like Gush Tendrils, TPS (with Bob and less), Long or Doomsday, in Italy our meta is invaded by disruptive deck imprinted to denial. 14 is the right number of lands - in my head, obviously - to stabilize Storm. The great number of MUD push me to play a solid mana base: 2 island and 1 swamp to optimize the effect of fetchlands.
4 discard effects are the good number: not always we lose life, misstep is present in the meta and the fact that it's played on a Duress or on Thoughtseize is better than seen it on Ancestral Recall. The second discard effect is the best we can improve, specially against MUD or other creatures deck (all decks play a great number of those). This is also the reason why I play 2 Fatal Push in main deck. Hurkyl's doesn't resolve always all problems and I'm so scared from Team Leovold, maybe I can pass to 1 but for the moment I'll stay so.
DP is a good card but I don't like expensive spell: in this deck we have just 3 YB, Desire and the most control nature of my list doesn't allow to have always an exploding start. Grim Tutor is perfect for me because after threshold, all rituals become istant closing.
A most controlling shell, with 8 protections, allows us to play against all decks without risking to concede at an earlier date.
A question, playing my list which cards would you take away and which you suggest?

last edited by MrAnderson
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