Can you ever 'Jund them out'? (Decklist)
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If you really tried? If dedicated yourself to anti-Shops anti-MentorCantrips?
So i don't totally know what i am doing, but i was brewing around (on paper) and came up with something like this. This is an excercise and thought experiment but i'm not not serious about making a real valid attempt at making this as viable as possible. It may be garbage, and if so, it may be unsalvageable, but we don't build decks for no reason so there should always be something to learn.
Creatures: (18) 4 Deathrite Shaman 3 Dark Confidant 3 Grim Flayer 1 Gaddock Teeg 2 Sulfur Elemental 1 Dryad Arbor 1 Manglehorn 3 Ramunap Excavator Hand Disruption: (10) 3 Thoughtseize 2 Inquisition of Kozilek 2 Chains of Mephistopheles 3 Liliana of the Veil Removal: (8) 2 Abrupt Decay 1 Abrade 2 Ingot Chewer 2 Sudden Shock 1 Snuff Out Tutors: (4) 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 2 Green Sun's Zenith Mana: (20) 5 Lotus, Sol Ring, Moxes 2 Bayou 2 Badlands 1 Taiga 3 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 3 Verdant Catacombs 3 Wooded FoothillsThe goal here is to get ahead in mana with the set of 4x Deathrite Shaman and 1x Dryad Arbor, which is fetchable with 2x Green Sun's Zenith.
Dark Confidant provides card advantage that dodges Chains, and while i have 34 cards at 0-1 mana, i have a lot of 3-mana spells. He dodges damage with support provided by the filtering Grim Flayer can provide, who can attain Delirium by himself, but i have a fair amount of various spells and sac-lands to get him there.
Flayer also pitches lands for Ramunap Excavator so i can draw actionable spells when i want and play from my 'second hand' for lands. Ramunap provides further support against Shop's Spheres and Wastelands, and i hope also provides me a Crucible to win those attrition wars since it seems Shops is not on Crucible.
There's some Sulfur Elemental for White Weenies and some awful temple-dwelling spiritualist that makes terrible 1/1s. The elemental is not totally terrible vs non-white decks, as he still is an uncounterable 3 power flash dude and knocks Jace flat.
Teeg and Manglehorn are extra flex for Green Sun. I'm not sure about Manglehorn on the whole. He sure does come down and poop on a Shops piece, but i also thought it stops some Fleetweel or if get the drop on Paradoxical he can stuff them up. Teeg works against Paradoxical, the spell, as well Force and Jace. Stops me from Casting Snuff out and of course Green Sun but that is acceptable.The one-for-one 1cmc hand disruption is really sad against Mental Misstep, no doubt. Which is still marginally useful as it's easier to cast some Deathrites later perhaps. It is, however, generally perfectly acceptable against forms of combo still.
Chains is in there because of cantrips/JaceDack galore and variants of Paradoxical and maybe sometimes Griselbrand out of Oath, with some splash against metalcrafting Thoughtcast types.
Liliana is not the threat she is in Legacy, but she is still too good to not be an autoinclude if you are playing BRG grind. She may not be as scary as mentor and she does not destroy mentor, but Liliana lets you pitch lands for later use with Ramunap (you don't play your land drop from hand) and activate Flayer much easier, and if you get to grind for 2-3 turns against a blue deck, that feels just swell. She is very reasonable vs Oath if she can resolve, but that is not especially likely i feel, and doubly doubtful if they are on Griselbrand. She's garbage against shops because of their threat density/Precursor, Revoker, Ballista, and Hangarback.The removal suite is built clearly around Monastery and artifacts. I tried to diversify very well against other decks.
2x Abrupt and 2x Sudden Shock give serious edge vs Mentor, although with Abrupt they may possibly get tokens instead of 1. I mean they can even 'counter' targeting Abrupt. Abrupt is also just regular amounts of powerful vs many things as a catchall. Dack, JVP, Oath, most creatures out of Shops even if not ideal, Paradoxical stuff.
Sudden Shock seems like such a Mentor card of course, but also can lay some serious damage against Shops. It may not seem like much with the two damage, but not only does it kill Revoker, it can destroy Ravager or Ballista before any activations or in response to an activation maybe targeting Factory. It can be played around, but maybe you poop on someone's day for a minute when they don't think you are playing such a thing.
Abrade is some serious flex i think. Mentor may dodge it if they are holding two spells, and it can be countered as normal. But it will kill it sometimes, so it's not totally dead, even though it shines a little more against shops, and of course has a splash against Paradoxical stuff and the few fair decks like Maybe a Leovold.
Grudge and Nature's Claim are just more diversification. Grudge is very specific and narrow but can be cast twice, which i value, and has bonus points for pitching cleanly to Lili or Flayer.
Snuff out is just fine as yet another removal vs normies, but 'free' casting against resisters in Shops makes this flexible there, and it also kills Eldrazi as well as dodge their Sphere a little.Demonic and Vampiric just help along the way of a little card selection with the silver bullets, or helping ensure drawing Ramunap or the correct removal.
Green Sun's has more than enough targets to be fine to draw later in the game. It's got 2 silver bullet types but the standard engine-guys of Ramunap, Deathrite, and Flayer are there.Mana is some standard restricted artifacts, regular duals and fetches, but also a set of Wastelands for grinding and taking out Shop, Bazaar, Academy, Library. I didn't set on any basic lands or go over 5 colored mana producing lands, and i do not know if that is correct. I want some number of fetches, but they are not great with Ramunap after you have pulled out your 'real' lands. It may be more correct to drop a fetch and something else for a couple extra 'real' lands, but it is also possibly very incorrect to do since Deathrite wants some lands to eat. Without a lot of practice, i cannot say right now that Deathrites are going to get there on the mana. They can Misstep, Plowed, or Revokered and absolutely none of that garbage is what we want.
I believe the sideboard includes a couple Sudden Shock and Ingot Chewers to replace each other when you find out which deck you are playing. There is the rest of the typical stuff, and some things like Tormod's Crypt are also sweet for a boost to Flayer.
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I'm thinking
-2 Inquisition of kozilek
-3 Grim flayer
+1 Thoughtseize/ or Fatal push
+1 Dark Confidant/ or Scavenging ooze
+1 Maelstrom pulse
+2 pyroblast/ or ancient grudge -
@Sovarius It feels like you and I might be on the same track. Please see my homebrew list and tell me what you think. I just posted. In testing, I found that Oath of Nissa (I know... it sounds insane) was actually great in the Excavator + Wasteland plan. I'm not sure about your list, but it feels like it might work out ok given 33 lands+creatures? I like the Confidant idea. And Teeg, he might just be going in my build, I totally forgot him.
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@Ten-Ten said in Can you ever 'Jund them out'? (Decklist):
I'm thinking
-3 Grim flayerSeems like a lot of damage off Dark Confidant then, no? With no filtering. Nine at 3cmc, 2 ingot chewers and a Snuff Out.
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Are you testing this at all?
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@sovarius
Your list seems highly dependant on flayer damage. I'm not liking that one bit. I keep wanting blue instead of red in this deck. That would take you to Leovold instead of Flayer and better ways of "filtering " for Bob. It's difficult to change one or two cards without changing the majority of the list and how it works. -
I personally love and have tested Grim Flayer a lot. His synergies with Bob and Ramanup are soooooo good. And with 4 Oath of Nissa it is not hard to reach Delirium at all. I would run 1-2 Sylvan Libraries as well personally as they synergize well with Bob, Grim, and just drawing clutch cards when needed as well. Not to mention it fuels delirium and cant be derpstepped.
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@topical_island In Legacy, I found Oath of Nissa to be an absolutely insane card. It also opens up your sideboard really wide, with both Domri Rade and Ashiok along with making LotV much smoother. I absolutely loved playing Oath and would recommend it for others - the high likelihood of replacement helps you fight in the same card advantage axis instead of mostly ceding the battlefield and I always find Jund to be a type of tapout control decks, so getting another land isn't normally a bad thing. Oh, and multiple copies just feed the Tarmogoyf or some other delve spell you may eventually play.
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@boxian Thanks for the tip. I've been interested in the card for a long time, but this is the first deck I've ever tested it in. I kinda threw 1 copy in at first just for giggles and woah, it was really good at assembling Wasteland and Excavator. Have you ever run it or seen it run with Flickerwisp or anything like that. I'm kinda just curious about exploiting it as a permanent and not just the sorcery that we all know it to actually be. (I keep thinking... hmmm Stax? Nope not really... Paradoxical?... Nope not really... Braids?... Nope, doesn't work at all.)
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@topical_island
Would really like to test if i have to proxy it up. I have many things taking time in my life besides magic like anyone else.@ten-ten said in Can you ever 'Jund them out'? (Decklist):
@sovarius
Your list seems highly dependant on flayer damage. I keep wanting blue instead of red in this deck.Hmm, i don't think the point is to always have Flayer, just that it will help smooth draws for the Confidant 'engine'. I think i would remove both of those cards before removing only Flayer? Or overall just streamline the curve.
And i mean Leovold is a great card, but the point is to play the color red for the meta-hate cards. I would agree changing a few cards can easily change the deck entirely.Oath of NIssa does seem really strong, i could test that as well when i can put this together. It sounds interesting.
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@topical_island i hadn't run it with any flicker effects, but that would be fun. i would be hesitant to go into another color though (outside of planeswalkers), but it may not make sense to force jund in vintage in the first place.
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@boxian I've been testing Flicker in the other deck. It's really just ok. In spots its great, but those spots seem too few. (Synergy with Oath of Nissa, Manglehorn, and to a lesser extent with Ravager... and good against opposing Balistas, Ravagers, and the odd planeswalker reset and then attack and kill)
If someone was running white anyways, I would suggest it as a potential deep tech SB card against Ravager Shops, but probably wouldn't run it myself, and probably not over Eldrazi Displacer, which seems to compete for the same spot?
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@boxian said in Can you ever 'Jund them out'? (Decklist):
@topical_island it may not make sense to force jund in vintage in the first place.
It probably doesn't, i was thinking with roughly 70% of the field being one of two decks (thought they are polar opposites) maybe there could be some real room for a meta-deck.
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I once saw a tech between Sylvan Library and Death's Shadow. Library is fine with Bob flips, and more ca is always nice. What I am unsure about, is that I don't think Shadow is good against Precursor Golems, and even worse against a Mentor.
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Library and Confidant are okay together, but i feel Confidant is just risky in a Shadow deck, because you want to control your life loss.
Shadow doesn't seem against precursors, and especially not against multiple swords and multiple missteps.
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Something about this list seems off to me. Maybe it's all the discard spells in it. Those seem especially bad in vintage at such a high number. I think 2 thoughtseize main and 2 board is enough. They get very bad in the late game and they aren't even great in the early game. This is not modern where you are taking away their first and ONLY play. This is vintage where if you take away a powerful line, they still have a second powerful line to take. And then you keep drawing worthless cards in the long run.
I'd rather see more impactful creatures in the list than discard cards. Unfortunately, that probably means, and as much as I love Grim Flayer, that Grim Flayer becomes unplayable in the list because you will have one less archetype in the yard.
I like manglehorn, confidant, deathrite shaman. I like flametongue Kavu or some other creature removal/creature hybrid.
Jund wins because of two for 1s. I don't see a lot of value cards in this list. Mostly 1 for 1.
You also get access to rootmaze to stop paradoxical outcome lists.
Oh yeah and Liliana of the Viel is unplayable in Vintage. It does nothing vs 90% of the field.
If you can find a way to get more ramp cards, mind twist becomes viable. I don't know if that means playing mana crypt and off color moxen or lotus petal or spirit guides. But I think the key to this deck becoming success hinges on Mind twist's inclusion and being able to cast it for 3-5 on turn 2.
Green suns zenith and dryad arbor aren't playable in vintage either. GSZ is just a bad card. You are always overpaying 1 mana for whatever creature you are trying to get. The versatility of it is punished in Vintage especially because 1) it's a spell and more cards effect spells than creatures 2) tax effects exist.
So cut the green suns, Liliana's, bad discard spells, grim flayers, garbage green sun tutor cards like dryad arbor and gaddock teeg.
Add ramp, fastbond, more wasteland effects, mind twist, and probably play the 4 of the walking crucible dude, and some number of flametongue kavu. You could even just play crucible of worlds on top of the creature copy too. I really like that idea, along with fastbond and Mind Twist.
See what I did there. I took out fair (often terrible cards) and added in a bunch of powerful ones.
