Note to self Flash does not cast the creature. Huge bummer.

Everyone who's building the FLash deck is 100% doing it wrong.

4 Flash
4 Academy Rector
1 Yawmoth's Bargain
2 Omniscience
1 EmrakLOL, the Assholes Torn
2 Show and Tell
1 Jace, the MindSculptor
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Mental Mistep
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gitaxian Probe
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald

@Godder

Consult is very good. But as someone who played combo with consult beofre it was restricted, I can tell you it's a card with real drawbacks. It's obviously great, but it's not DT. DT is perfectly reliable.

Consulting for a restricted card or a 'one of' loses you the game a lot of the time. Not just from the risk of having it in your top six (very real), but from how many cards you may need to remove before you reach the 'one of'. You can remove all your win conditions. You can remove all the swamps and strand a fetch land. You can remove too much draw and have no velocity. Sometimes it's just the bottom card in your deck. The great consult decks of the past were built around 4 ofs (4 necro 4 ritual 4 illusions 4 donate), or were built around wishes (consult for burning sac led in response). The later is much weaker now that wishes can't bring a card back from excile anymore and that the wishes are themselves restricted.

Consult wouldn't just plug into storm and be DT 2-5, it would need to be in a 4of style deck. Something like the below:

'''
#Draft 2 card monte with consult
Draw / search (10)
Ancestral
DT
4 consult
Jar
Tinker
Vampiric
Wheel

Combo (19)
4 Grindstone
4 painter
4 leyline
3 helm
4 welder

Misc (4)
2 defense grid
2 red blast

Mana (27)
4 ancient tomb
7 sol lo mox
4 gemstone mine
4 city of brass
Crypt
Vault
4 shop
Academy
Urborg
'''

I think that would probably be a strong deck; one that put up top 8s and occasionally won large events. But I don't think it would dominate the meta and win everything. Some new decks get added and life is good.

Of course, maybe consult just goes into PO storm and the deck makes space for 4 maindeck tendrils kills people on turn one all the time and life is awful.

If people want to add power to combo, consult probably adds more power than flash. Flash makes one new deck, consult creates a whole new deck building challenge of finding the best 4of based combo in vintage (hope that combo is not just 4mentor+deck).

Just to note the epistemic status of these posts, I'm mostly trying to brainstorm and engage in outside the box thinking about unrestriction and not tunnel on one card. I don't really have any firm confidence in the belief that consult would be a good unrestriction and would need a lot of deck building, goldfishing, and live testing to get to a point where I could say anything with even moderate certainty. I'm just trying to keep people thinking here and to keep people questioning assumptions about what could be unrestricted.

last edited by walking.dude

@MSolymossy

I think you really want 4 therapy there. It's a combo piece with rector, it's solid disruption, and it's a card that combos with its self if you draw multiples. The first therapy sets you up for perfect snipes with the second.

@walking.dude Dont think you need 4 therapy at all if you have 4 flash. I would maybe cut a preordain for a flusterstorm though. If folks think Pyroblast sees a lot of play now wait if Flash comes off...

4 virulent sliver + 1 heart sliver
and 1 galerider sliver (side)
is most anti-hate flash combo.

I compiled a list of the reasons for each restricted card's restriction. On the left is the restricted card and on the right is the reason for it's restriction. Feel free to offer criticism/changes and I'll try to add them. Cards that are marked as fundamental include cards like the power nine and anything else that has long been understood to undercostedly undermine fundamental strategic elements of the game such as single land drops per turn(Moxen and Fastbond), one turn each per rotation(Time Walk) etc. Here is the list:

  • Ancestral Recall...............Fundamental
  • Balance.............................Fundamental/Format Dominance
  • Black Lotus.......................Fundamental
  • Brainstorm .......................Gush
  • Chalice of the Void...........Mishra's Workshop
  • Channel.............................Fundamental
  • Demonic Consultation.....Ritual Storm Combo/Every two card combo ever(Now also good with Lab Maniac)
  • Demonic Tutor..................Every Restricted Card
  • Dig Through Time.............Gush/Cantrips
  • Fastbond...........................Fundamental/Draw 7s
  • Flash..................................Protean Hulk(Note: Also good with Academy Rector and many others)
  • Gitaxian Probe..................Monastery Mentor
  • Gush..................................Monastery Mentor
  • Imperial Seal.....................Every Restricted Card
  • Library of Alexandria........Fundamental
  • Lion's Eye Diamond..........Draw 7s/Ritual Storm Combo
  • Lodestone Golem.............Mishra's Workshop
  • Lotus Petal.......................Ritual Storm Combo
  • Mana Crypt.......................Fundamental
  • Mana Vault.......................Fundamental(Historically Related to Mishra's Workshop?)
  • Memory Jar......................The Power 9/Other Draw7s
  • Merchant Scroll................Ancestral Recall/Gush
  • Mind's Desire....................Minds's Desire
  • Mox Emerald....................Fundamental
  • Mox Jet.............................Fundamental
  • Mox Pearl..........................Fundamental
  • Mox Ruby..........................Fundamental
  • Mox Sapphire...................Fundamental
  • Mystical Tutor...................Every Restricted Instant and Sorcery(Such as Balance and the Draw 7s)
  • Necropotence...................Format Dominance
  • Ponder...............................Gush
  • Sol Ring.............................Fundamental
  • Strip Mine..........................Fundamental(Historically related to Mishra's Workshop)
  • Time Vault.........................Voltaic Key/Every card that can repeatedly untap artifacts
  • Time Walk.........................Fundamental
  • Timetwister.......................The Power 9/Other Draw7s
  • Tinker.................................Fundamental(Also Memory Jar)
  • Tolarian Academy.............The Power 9/Draw7s
  • Treasure Cruise.................Gush/Cantrips
  • Trinisphere.........................Mishra's Workshop
  • Vampiric Tutor...................Every Restricted Card
  • Wheel of Fortune...............The Power 9/Other Draw7s
  • Windfall..............................The Power 9/Other Draw7s
  • Yawgmoth's Bargain.......... . . . Ritual Storm Combo?
  • Yawgmoth's Will.................The Power 9/Ritual Storm Combo

Note that, according to my understanding, there are two cards that were restricted primarily because of their interaction with unrestricted Gush, three cards restricted primarily because of their interaction with unrestricted Mishra's Workshop, and two cards Restricted primarily because of their interaction with unrestricted Monastery Mentor (Also stated by the DCI to be related to Mishra's Workshop).

@Brass-Man is there a way to codify a table?

last edited by Aaron Patten

@Aaron-Patten

I'm not sure Ponder even can be said to be related to Gush. In Vintage today, Ponder is not too different than Preordain, so unless we want that fine dividing line to be the line between unrestricted and restricted draw (makes me too at PO if so), then there really isn't a reason for restricted Ponder. Unlike brainstorm, it really only gives you 1 more card to use in your hand.

Ponder, Fastbond, Flash, Windfall, Necropotence, Yawgmoths Bargain, Channel, Library of Alexandria, even Timetwister could be taken off the list. Would it lead to more "coin flippy" games? Yes. Would it create 5++ new decks and archetypes? Yes. Would these new glass cannon decks do better than Belcher, PO, Dredge, Oath, MUD, and Mentor? No.

Its all the same guys. You say one is broken, the other is not. Force of Will, Mental Misstep, Spheres, Wasteland, Null Rod, Mindbreak Trap, Duress efx, Leylines, the cards FIX THEMSELVES. There is an answer to EVERYTHING.

LET THE CARDS BE FREE.

@Smmenen I actually played a flash Hulk deck months ago and had to play 2 see beyond. I found that playing show and tell + therapy with hiveminds and 4 summoners pact and only one hulk was the way to go so that you could fight the graveyard hate postboard. The deck was pretty strong and if flash and/or brainstorm came off the list it might be a player.

@tsoatt

Interesting. Based on your experience, what would you say to people who are afraid that just unrestricting Flash might create problems for the format?

last edited by Smmenen

Ponder is definitely restricted because of Gush. Ponder was a primarily used as an instrument of the Gush mana base; Vintage decks weren't playing "Opt" otherwise; they were playing Accumulated Knowledge and Thirst for Knowledge. If Gush were never unrestricted, Ponder would have never seen play. They restricted Gush, Brainstorm, Scroll, and Ponder all at once so people just threw in restricted Ponders into what used to be Brainstorm slots.

If you could go back to 2005 and cut your Thirsts for Ponders, you get blown out. It's fairly comical to imagine.

I've said it when it happened and I'm saying it now. Ponder was the stupidest restriction the DCI ever came up with, even stupider than Gitaxian Probe. (People are only now realizing that DCI is incompetent???). Ponder is not even worth talking about unrestricting because it's so stupid that you get dumber just be trying to understand what the DCI is thinking

With regards to Flash, it could probably come off but then we would actually have another brainless, but good deck in the format. So it's a losing proposition for my tastes. It wasn't so much that Flash was broken, but it was boring. "Oh you have land, Mox, Flash? I guess you win! Play again? Oh land, Mox, Flash? Okay good games!" Do you want matches to go like this?

last edited by desolutionist

Anybody who wants to unrestrict Flash, I will offer to play you for $10/game at Eternal Weekend this year if I get to play 4 copies of Flash vs. your current deck. You will regret it. The deck should not be using the kill conditions mentioned above. It should be based on the article I wrote last year, with Show and Tell. You do not rely on the graveyard, but utilize it better than anyone else. Serenity + Hurkyl's Recall makes the Workshop matchup a joke.

Having access to both Omniscience and Bargain totally changes the calculus as compared to previous iterations of Flash. Giving the best color an even faster (effective) game ending 2 mana spell at instant speed is a very, very poor idea. I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame), which have 4 copies of arguably the best kill condition ever printed.

  1. Flash should stay restricted. Remembering decks like Hulk Flash (at least in legacy) were absolutely miserable. Understandably, having a natural turn one kill happens in vintage sometimes. But consistently facing down a deck that can win turn "0" if you are on the draw and easily turn 1, no one wants to face that down. It is ridiculously hard to combat and the meta would change rapidly for the worse in my opinion.

Lodestone Golem
Anyhow, the card I would like to see unrestricted is Lodestone Golem. Yes, it was just recently put on the list and everyone breathed a sigh of relief. However, in my opinion shops has not gotten any less scary it is just a different beast. With the advent of walking Ballista, shops players suddenly had three spots open that were easily filled with a walking machine gun instead of the golem and then some.

Unrestricting Lodestone puts the option back on the table and makes the shops player make a potentially very difficult decision. Run the old list, the new, or some hybrid. However, making room for all of them seems difficult. It brings a traditional stax deck back into play, which play different than what we have now. Admittedly, this is making arguably the strongest deck in the format even stronger, but it could shake up the meta. The devil we knew might be a lot less scary than the devil we have now.

Also we should Unban Shahrazad, I think it is a fantastic idea...

Brainstorm isn't restricted because of Gush, that's absurd. It's restricted because of fetchlands.

I wouldn't say anything needs to come off right now. Just Mentor needs to go like it already had last announcement.

@fsecco It was restricted along with ponder and Merchant Scroll in order to address the Gush-bond engine. Fetchlands had already been available for several years.

@Aaron-Patten said in Cards to unrestrict:

@fsecco It was restricted along with ponder and Merchant Scroll in order to address the Gush-bond engine.

It was restricted along with Ponder, Merchant Scroll, and Gush itself. (and for that matter, Flash, which also synergized with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll)

Saying that Brainstorm/Ponder/Scroll were restricted in order to make Gush decks worse just doesn't make any sense. There was never supposed to be a time where Gush was unrestricted and Merchant Scroll wasn't. The decision to unrestrict Gush years later could not have been anticipated by the people making the restriction decision at that time.

last edited by Brass Man

@Brass-Man Yes, it was part of the original engine which was all restricted at once.

Quoting this article:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/shadowmoors-impact-standard-2008-06-06
"Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm and Ponder have all been added to the restricted list. Merchant Scroll tutors for the most powerful cards. Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy."
Yet, Preordain and many other cantrips still exist unrestricted. I don't think it would have been restricted if it weren't for Gush. Same with Ponder.

last edited by Aaron Patten

@JACO said in Cards to unrestrict:

Anybody who wants to unrestrict Flash, I will offer to play you for $10/game at Eternal Weekend this year if I get to play 4 copies of Flash vs. your current deck. You will regret it. The deck should not be using the kill conditions mentioned above. It should be based on the article I wrote last year, with Show and Tell. You do not rely on the graveyard, but utilize it better than anyone else. Serenity + Hurkyl's Recall makes the Workshop matchup a joke.

Having access to both Omniscience and Bargain totally changes the calculus as compared to previous iterations of Flash. Giving the best color an even faster (effective) game ending 2 mana spell at instant speed is a very, very poor idea. I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame), which have 4 copies of arguably the best kill condition ever printed.

This article: http://www.eternalcentral.com/giftsweek-gifts-rector-omniscience/ ?

Here is your deck:

[Business] (36)
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Rebuild
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Flash
1 Tinker
3 Show and Tell
3 Academy Rector
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Omniscience
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

[/Business] (0)

[Mana Sources] (24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp

[/Mana Sources] (0)
[Sideboard] (15)
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Energy Flux
1 Serenity
1 Rest in Peace
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Mental Misstep
2 Defense Grid
1 Toxic Deluge[/Side

What nice about the deck, as you say, is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard, because you can just use Show and Tell. But it certainly wants to be able to use it's graveyard. Rector can't trigger with Leyline in play, nor can you flashback Therapy. Gifts/Will is pretty awkward as wlel.

This deck is definitely more difficult to hate out then the Flash decks I was brewing above, but it's also definitely alot less consistent in terms of being able to assemble the Flash combo. With Leyline in play, all you have to do is counter Show and Tell and your deck is largely dead in the water.

It's probably just as viable to do what Dredge often does, and bounce the hate rather than try to play around it like you do.

I'm not saying this isn't a good deck, I just don't think it would be dominant. Vintage has so many tools for combating these types of decks these days.

I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame),

The idea of unrestricting Flash is an alternative way to deal with a metagame that is strangled by Shops/Mentor. It doesn't do anything about Mentor directly, except create a deck that could compete with it.

Unrestricting Flash either creates new decks or strengthens an existing, marginal strategy. I don't think anyone can dispute that from a purely logical perspective. The issue isn't whether unrestricting Flash would do that, the question is whether the costs of having that kind of deck outweigh the benefits. Specifically, whether having a new deck or improved Flash strategy in the metagame to improve the diversity in the metagame is worth the cost or risk of having a deck that can do really broken things and be generally unfun.

last edited by Smmenen
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