@JACO said in Cards to unrestrict:
I'm not saying this isn't a good deck, I just don't think it would be dominant. Vintage has so many tools for combating these types of decks these days.
I said you would start with the deck shell in the aforementioned article, not use it as printed. You would want to dramatically lower the mana curve, and will not play 4 Gifts (1-2 will suffice at that point when you have 4 copies of Flash), because Gifts is more of a game-ender in that scenario. The consistency and power with 4 Flash and 3-4 Show and Tell is much more powerful than any combo deck we're currently seeing in Vintage at the moment.
But if Show and Tell were really that good, it would see more play than it currently does.
And, I don't think that combining Flash and Show and Tell generates some untapped synergy that really makes it significantly better than either a Show and Tell deck or a Flash deck is individually. There may be some synergy there (in weakening specific hate, much like DD/Dredge combo), but there are costs as well. The Flash deck I posted earlier is significantly more consistent and faster than your deck is with Flash/Rector. And you lose insane cards like Pacts.
I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame),
The idea of unrestricting Flash is an alternative way to deal with a metagame that is strangled by Shops/Mentor. It doesn't do anything about Mentor directly, except create a deck that could compete with it. Unrestricting Flash either creates new decks or strengthens an existing, marginal strategy. I don't think anyone can dispute that from a purely logical perspective. The issue isn't whether unrestricting Flash would do that, the question is whether the costs of having that kind of deck outweigh the benefits.
I understand this sentiment, and don't think giving the format a more busted combo deck is a great solution.
As I said, I think the issue is whether the costs of having a Flash deck outweigh the benefits of another angle in the format. Reasonable people can disagree on that.
Some people might reasonably argue that having another angle of attack in the format would increase the diversity of the format at not much cost.
And others would emphasize, as you do, the games that are spoiled by having a silly combo go off.
Where people fall on that line depend on their tolerance for combos and a slight increase in Turn 1-3 kills, and the % or frequency of games "spoiled" or "unfun" as a result.
But what I don't think is fair or reasonable is some claim that the deck you outlined above would be some kind of unbeatable format killer. That, I doubt. In fact, were Flash unrestricted, I'd be shocked if your deck, or some variant of it, were more than 15% of Top 8s six months later.
People are doing well enough with Outcome and Gifts decks, and frankly are still in the beginning stages of innovating and adjusting those to compete with Mentor and 9Sphere.dec Workshop variants.
Eh, I don't think that some new "innovation" or brew is going to change the fundamental structure of this format at this point. It's been 3 months since the restrictions, and Magic metagames, especially on MTGO, are capable of changing overnight. If something in the format was going to fundamentally change - if a Gifts deck, for example, was really going to break out, I think it would have done so by now.
There is virtually no precedent for tier 1 breakout decks in Vintage 3 months after a restriction that is not more a result of a new printing.
If PO/Thirst/Gifts decks start rising up, the Mentor/Shops decks will just pack more Stony Silence/Null Rod and other cards like that, and they'll drop back down again, much like more Dredge leads to more GY hate.
I don't think we are in the 'beginning' stages of any adjustments. I rather think we are at the tail end of a period of adjustment, and the format is pretty settled at this point, except for any adjustments Hour of Devastation may contribute.
The point of my comment is that Mentor is likely the best kill condition in Vintage, by a long shot, and simply adding an unfun and busted combo deck to the format isn't going to do anything to cure the ills of Vintage, and bring back people in to the fold who are sick of it at the moment. The card Mentor itself has done far more to push out other decks and strategies than any perceived damage that Gush or Gitaxian Probe ever did.
I agree with that last part, of course, but the argument for unrestricting Flash, which I'm not entirely persuaded off, looks beyond the eventual restriction of Mentor. You're getting too focused on Mentor.
Once Mentor is restricted, it's likely, based upon our currently trajectory, that we'll see more restrictions as a result of this path. The idea of unrestricting Flash, or, more plausibly, Windfall/Bargain, is to try to boost marginal strategies to try to compete with dominant decks rather than continue on this current cycle of endless restrictions triggered by prior, unnecessary restrictions.
The reason that Gush shouldn't have been restricted is that it wasn't necessary; Mentor was the problem, not Gush. And the main argument that restricting Gush was not some harmless event, even if it was wrong, is that it makes other restrictions more likely, not less. So, after Mentor is restricted, without Gush there to keep PO decks in check, it's more likely that PO will get restricted, and on beyond that. If Gush hadn't been restricted, I think Gush and PO would have existed in a decent equilibrium, much like the February P9 challenge metagame.
If I'm right, that restricting Gush triggers multiple future restrictions that may not have been necessary, then one possible alternative route is unrestrictions to create metagame balance and more diversity, not restrictions. Once Mentor is restricted, this is going to be a debate that will need to be had. I'm simply projecting beyond that point, and trying to address it proactively.