Brainstorm isn't restricted because of Gush, that's absurd. It's restricted because of fetchlands.

I wouldn't say anything needs to come off right now. Just Mentor needs to go like it already had last announcement.

@fsecco It was restricted along with ponder and Merchant Scroll in order to address the Gush-bond engine. Fetchlands had already been available for several years.

@Aaron-Patten said in Cards to unrestrict:

@fsecco It was restricted along with ponder and Merchant Scroll in order to address the Gush-bond engine.

It was restricted along with Ponder, Merchant Scroll, and Gush itself. (and for that matter, Flash, which also synergized with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Merchant Scroll)

Saying that Brainstorm/Ponder/Scroll were restricted in order to make Gush decks worse just doesn't make any sense. There was never supposed to be a time where Gush was unrestricted and Merchant Scroll wasn't. The decision to unrestrict Gush years later could not have been anticipated by the people making the restriction decision at that time.

last edited by Brass Man

@Brass-Man Yes, it was part of the original engine which was all restricted at once.

Quoting this article:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/shadowmoors-impact-standard-2008-06-06
"Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm and Ponder have all been added to the restricted list. Merchant Scroll tutors for the most powerful cards. Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy."
Yet, Preordain and many other cantrips still exist unrestricted. I don't think it would have been restricted if it weren't for Gush. Same with Ponder.

last edited by Aaron Patten

@JACO said in Cards to unrestrict:

Anybody who wants to unrestrict Flash, I will offer to play you for $10/game at Eternal Weekend this year if I get to play 4 copies of Flash vs. your current deck. You will regret it. The deck should not be using the kill conditions mentioned above. It should be based on the article I wrote last year, with Show and Tell. You do not rely on the graveyard, but utilize it better than anyone else. Serenity + Hurkyl's Recall makes the Workshop matchup a joke.

Having access to both Omniscience and Bargain totally changes the calculus as compared to previous iterations of Flash. Giving the best color an even faster (effective) game ending 2 mana spell at instant speed is a very, very poor idea. I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame), which have 4 copies of arguably the best kill condition ever printed.

This article: http://www.eternalcentral.com/giftsweek-gifts-rector-omniscience/ ?

Here is your deck:

[Business] (36)
4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Rebuild
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Flash
1 Tinker
3 Show and Tell
3 Academy Rector
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Omniscience
1 Yawgmoth’s Bargain
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

[/Business] (0)

[Mana Sources] (24)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp

[/Mana Sources] (0)
[Sideboard] (15)
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Energy Flux
1 Serenity
1 Rest in Peace
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Mental Misstep
2 Defense Grid
1 Toxic Deluge[/Side

What nice about the deck, as you say, is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard, because you can just use Show and Tell. But it certainly wants to be able to use it's graveyard. Rector can't trigger with Leyline in play, nor can you flashback Therapy. Gifts/Will is pretty awkward as wlel.

This deck is definitely more difficult to hate out then the Flash decks I was brewing above, but it's also definitely alot less consistent in terms of being able to assemble the Flash combo. With Leyline in play, all you have to do is counter Show and Tell and your deck is largely dead in the water.

It's probably just as viable to do what Dredge often does, and bounce the hate rather than try to play around it like you do.

I'm not saying this isn't a good deck, I just don't think it would be dominant. Vintage has so many tools for combating these types of decks these days.

I'm not sure how unrestricting Flash does anything to change the power and effectiveness of unrestricted Mentor decks (and the corresponding metagame),

The idea of unrestricting Flash is an alternative way to deal with a metagame that is strangled by Shops/Mentor. It doesn't do anything about Mentor directly, except create a deck that could compete with it.

Unrestricting Flash either creates new decks or strengthens an existing, marginal strategy. I don't think anyone can dispute that from a purely logical perspective. The issue isn't whether unrestricting Flash would do that, the question is whether the costs of having that kind of deck outweigh the benefits. Specifically, whether having a new deck or improved Flash strategy in the metagame to improve the diversity in the metagame is worth the cost or risk of having a deck that can do really broken things and be generally unfun.

last edited by Smmenen

Strongly suspect the pro-Flash posters and upvoters are actually all David Ho just trying to get the card unrestricted so he can sell the original art for $$$. Can't see any other logical reason anyone wants that card to be a 4-of.

The logic behind unrestricting Flash isn't that difficult to understand.

  • Doing so would create a new deck & increases diversity in metagame that is now mostly just Shops, Mentor, and a bit of PO/Oath/Dredge

The reasons not to unrestrict Flash are equally easy to understand:

  • Makes a deck that can potentially kill on Turn 1 with little set up or protection, making Vintage less fun or interactive.

I can understanding someone opposing the unrestriction of Gush on the latter grounds, but I can't understand how someone can't understand the former grounds. That doesn't mean we should unrestrict Flash, but it's not hard to understand "the logical reason."

last edited by Smmenen

@Aaron-Patten said in Cards to unrestrict:

@Brass-Man Yes, it was part of the original engine which was all restricted at once.

Quoting this article:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/latest-developments/shadowmoors-impact-standard-2008-06-06
"Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm and Ponder have all been added to the restricted list. Merchant Scroll tutors for the most powerful cards. Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy."
Yet, Preordain and many other cantrips still exist unrestricted. I don't think it would have been restricted if it weren't for Gush. Same with Ponder.

If fetchlands didn't exist, Brainstorm wouldn't be restricted. Period.

If Flash is "OK" to unrestrict to make a new archetype that would be of equal power to Mud and Mentor, then why not Channel and Balance? Turn 1 these are all of "equal" power and would give the same results of new archetypes if your not worried about more turn 1 wins/blowouts @Smmenen ?

@Serracollector said in Cards to unrestrict:

If Flash is "OK" to unrestrict to make a new archetype that would be of equal power to Mud and Mentor, then why not Channel and Balance? Turn 1 these are all of "equal" power and would give the same results of new archetypes if your not worried about more turn 1 wins/blowouts @Smmenen ?

I've already said this, but it bears repeating, I don't think the Vintage format should have a deck that can consistently win on Turn 1. But I do think that the current format can bear a little bit of speeding up. I don't think having a deck that wins, undisrupted, a slightly higher percentage of the time on Turns 1-3 than current decks would be a bad thing, if it measurably improved the diversity in the metagame. Closer historical baselines for Vintage would be fine.

I also said that the two cards I'd start with unrestricting are Windfall and/or Bargain, and "seriously consider" Flash, behind those two. So, I'm not on the "let's unrestrict Flash now" camp. My position is more subtle than that.

Flash is a deck that is vulnerable to very specific forms of hate that are readily available to all decks. The two main Flash creatures, Protean Hulk and Rector, don't work if Leyline is in play. Channel is not similarly vulnerable. You can do a much wider range of things with Channel, like cast Emrakul or Charbelcher.

Also, I don't think a deck designed to Balance on Turn 1 just to wipe the opponent's hand would be that good. But I do think that Balance is sufficiently obnoxious that, while it probably woudn't dominate the format, there are real risks that it is too much of a wipeout effect for creature decks, and would therefore strategically narrow, not expand, the format.

Flash is a very narrow card that would essentially create a new deck without specifically knocking anything out, and has very specific weaknesses that every deck could exploit. It appears, for example, that Pithing Needle & Leyline stop most Flash combos. From the perspective of just trying to create a new deck and improve strategic diversity, Flash is a very obvious target. The problem is that it's also probably not very fun to face and/or play against.

last edited by Smmenen

@POXEVERYTURN
If I remember correctly that's Richard Garfield's favorite card as well. Not that it should really make a difference, but I do also happen to agree with you.

What would be the worst-case scenario for unrestricting Fastbond? My imagination tells me that at the very least we'd get a playable Vintage Lands deck, but I'm also not much of a Vintage brewer so there may be consequences I'm not seeing. Does an unrestricted Fastbond fall into that sweet spot Steve is talking about with regards to a deck that speeds up the format, but doesn't lead to a deck that can consistently win on Turn 1?

@jimmycolorado

Here's a first draft of an unpowered lands deck with fastbond that's built in the style of a mana lock deck. Use null rod and strip / waste recursion to lock people out. Then kill them once locked.

Engine (16)
4 fast bond
4 exploration
3 rampup excavator
4 crucible of world's
1 horn of greed (don't want to draw this until allready have green enchantment resolved)

Lock (6)
4 null rod
2 sphere of resistance

Misc (5)
4 misstep
1 probe

Land Destruction (6)
4 waste
1 strip
1 ghost quarters

Tutors and targets (10)
4 crop rotation
1 workshop
1 tabernacle
2 glacial chasm (a lot of decks as currently configured only have one strip, so chasm plus a crucible effect locks them out, also combo with fastbond and horizon canopy to draw whole deck)
1 depths
1 stage

Other lands (17)
4 horizon canopy
4 fetch lands
6 forests
3 ancient tombs

This is off the cuff, so there is room for improvement.

The other direction I think fastbond would be strong in is draw 7 style combo. That's a bit harder to rebuild without a lot of goldfish testing. That's the more scary angle to me.

The following gem that won a Black Lotus at a 54-man event in the gool ol' days would be my starting point for a 4 Fastbond deck. While we don't have access to 4 Brainstorm anymore, we do have access to a full set of Crop Rotation and Regrowth, let alone the fact that the card pool has probably doubled since this deck won.

last edited by Guest

I'm just wondering if there's any support for something like the following:

  1. Unrestrict Ponder

  2. Unrestrict Demonic Consultation

  3. Unrestrict Gush

  4. Unrestrict Chalice of the Void

  5. Unrestrict Necropotence

  6. Unrestrict Yawgmoth's Bargain

  7. Unrestrict Windfall

  8. Restrict Monastery Mentor

The card that I think would allow for those 7 to come off is likely Chalice of the Void. I think Chalice was wrong axed when it was really the combo of Chalice + Lodestone Golem that was too OP and if we had seen Lodestone get axed first I'm not convinced that Chalice would have had to go. I think Chalice existed in the format healthily for many years and it wasn't until Thorn's printing that it even started to be played in a "MUD deck" where it could realistically be cast @1 early. I think the play of Chalice @1 would force cantrip decks to expand from that design space or lose more often and I also think it would, in turn, force players to seriously consider cutting the 1-of Dig and the 1-of Treasure Cruise from their lists as fueling them would become far more difficult. I think Chalice allows cards like Consultation to be safe (for the record, I think Consultation is fine anyway as you need to contort your list to even reliably play it and the whole turn-1-tendrils deck is a product of a bygone era. That deck is never coming back while we now have access to 4 misstep. Sorry guys, it just isn't). What are people's thoughts on Chalice as a way to open up the restricted list and allow cards to come off? Thoughts?

-Storm

I'm not sure I'll ever understand the sentiment that unrestricted Lodestone Golem was somehow worse for the format than Chalice would have been. As a longtime shop pilot, I experienced WAY more blowouts from Chalice than from the Golem. Golem rewarded metagame preparation and deck construction whereas Chalice randomly derped opening hands so hard that Ingot Chewer became the most played creature in the format.

@cutlex said in Cards to unrestrict:

I'm not sure I'll ever understand the sentiment that unrestricted Lodestone Golem was somehow worse for the format than Chalice would have been. As a longtime shop pilot, I experienced WAY more blowouts from Chalice than from the Golem. Golem rewarded metagame preparation and deck construction whereas Chalice randomly derped opening hands so hard that Ingot Chewer became the most played creature in the format.

Because it's way easier to beat a Chalice when you have more than 4 turns to do so.

Golem is just a juggernaut in a world of Moxen. I never understood why it got restricted. Chalice straight up shut down decks and any avenue of winning sans Ingot Chewer. Keep Chalice restricted.

@desolutionist

Exactly. Vintage players got by just fine in a world before 4 Golem but with 4 Chalice. Chalice is the more powerful card overall, agreed, but it also goes into way more lists effectively than Golem, and would have a more stabilizing impact on the format.

One mana spells are allready punished by misstep from most blue decks. If the other half of the format was playing 4 challice, 1 mana spells would just be a big liability all around. I don't think that would be good for the format.

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