Vintage Challenge - 6/17/2017

Wizards should just Unrestrict Gush, Git Probe, Fastbond, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault, Chalice, Lodestone, Dig Cruise, Library of Alexandria, Balance, Channel, and Flash. How much would that lead to new Archetypes and a completely different t8 every week as people try all kinds of crazy stuff? Im ok with these things, and honestly do not believe it would lead to any one dominate deck.

Unrestrict everything! Let's see what happens! Exciting!!

@enderfall Love your style. Let's dance bro!

@Serracollector said in Vintage Challenge - 6/17/2017:

Wizards should just Unrestrict Gush, Git Probe, Fastbond, Lotus Petal, Mana Vault, Chalice, Lodestone, Dig Cruise, Library of Alexandria, Balance, Channel, and Flash. How much would that lead to new Archetypes and a completely different t8 every week as people try all kinds of crazy stuff? Im ok with these things, and honestly do not believe it would lead to any one dominate deck.

I don't agree with all those unrestrictions; I think there is a lot of merit in revisiting the B&R list and taking things off of it like you are suggesting. Vintage list has no chance for self-correction.

I also believe people need to step back and separate out their personal pet peeves and dislikes from over-arching power level issues that present a problem for the metagame.

I think the DCI should have a laissez faire approach to the B&R list. If we go back to the Chalice or Lodestone ban, it seems that it was made because of people complaining about "fun". I don't think either should have been restricted because they were shop's answer to blue card advantage (you can disagree with me on this). I have some pet cards that I would love to play again (restrict revoker + ballista please for Goblin Welder), but I don't think we should use personal preference to determine the B&R. Now, some people think that we should because at the end of the day, Magic is a game and a game is meant to be fun. I respect that opinion, but I disagree.

What's fun for one person is not the same for another. As a result of it's subjectivity, I think the default, purest way to go about the B&R is to go by objective "brokenness." I don't think Gush was fun. I think it's stupid and boring. However, I don't think it was inherently "broken" either. It canabalized blue, yes, but it also got WRECKED by thorns. If we go to rock-paper-scissors of pregush restriction, i'd argue that big blue > shops > gush > big blue. The issue was that people enjoyed gush more than big blue, despite the poorer shops matchup. This lead to people who play big blue to feel bad because they have to face more gush decks than expected. However, that's an issue with preference, and not "brokenness."

tl;dr I think the B&R should be used for brokenness, not fun. One man's trash is another man's Goblin Welder.

And to be clear, my post may be incoherent because i'm tired AF from studying. I'm also a Goblin Welder fanboy so the whole Gush vs. Mana Drain discussion doesn't really bother me as I would play Mishra's Workshop regardless.

I feel obligated for whatever strange reason to give my $0.02 on the whole "State of Vintage" debate.

First though, I want to express my thanks to Matt, Ryan, and everyone else who helps put together data like this. I have been longing for data like this for far too long and put together Metagame breakdowns which paled in comparison to this back in 2010-2014. I know how much thankless work must go into this and I want everyone who helps with this to know that I appreciate the work they put in.

Vintage is a strange format in that it is an eternal format defined by the most powerful cards from the dawn of Magic which also incorporates and in some cases is shaped by the newest sets. I think for a long period of time this was not entirely the case, blocks like Kamigawa and Ravnica didn't completely change the landscape, but now it seems that every year something new comes out and completely rocks the Vintage world.

My point in saying this is that most Vintage players can point to a year and subjectively declare that, "Vintage was best in year ____". No one is wrong in saying this, maybe you loved the format in 2005, 2009, 2011, 2014 or 2016; regardless, you're not wrong for feeling that was the case. Unfortunately, Vintage is never going to be the place that it was in 2014 again before Khans came out, it doesn't matter how much you dislike what the Delve cards did to Vintage, they're not going to be un-printed. Personally, I loved the metagame immediately before Khans came out, but who really cares, Vintage is never going to be the same as it was until someone holds a "2014 Vintage Tournament".

Arguing about whether Vintage was a better format when Mana Drain is a strong card is a fool's errand. I think that trying to shape the B&R to make something like this a reality could work out really well, or it could be disastrous and given that nobody really knows what will happen if they restrict X or when something format altering is printed in 2018, it might be best if everyone stopped fighting about the B&R.

I think that Vintage is approaching a point where there are going to be people who play "Modern Vintage" and then there is going to be those who want to play "_____ Vintage" similarly to how people play 1993/94 Magic. I would probably play in an event like this, but I like being able to brew new decks and seeing how the new sets change things, so ultimately I'm going to be playing Vintage for the foreseeable future. I doubt that WOTC will do something like restrict Workshop, Bazaar or Force, but if something is viewed as oppressive I envision WOTC restricting or printing cards to prune back the plant so to speak, with the hope that they don't completely kill it.

I agree that there is the possibility of a schism, Will.

Will be interesting over time to see how the MTGO community maturation differs from the paper one. MTGO won't have the same reverence for cards like Bazaar, Drain, and Workshop. They will just want the best format to play possible. I doubt there will be the same type of "untouchables" in digital play.

Either way, Vintage has always been the Gentlemen's format, but certainly doesn't seem like it lately (lots of angst out there, even in much more innocent threads).

Let's keep it classy Vintage!!!

last edited by joshuabrooks

@joshuabrooks said in Vintage Challenge - 6/17/2017:

Let's keep it classy Vintage!!!

But mostly, thanks for stopping by!

@wappla This is a straw man at best, projection at the worst...

There are legitimate reasons to want a Gush restriction and/or a Mentor restriction based on diversity, your slippery slope notwithstanding. You dismissing that as a goal of the format does not matter much when Wizards has repeatedly cited it as the basis for multiple restrictions and the B&R website literally mentions it in the first sentence.

I honestly wonder if there's a point to posting this data here week after week when the only thing people seem to do is break off into cursing the DCI and then each other...

Thanks for your work Matt and Ryan.

@Hrishi said in Vintage Challenge - 6/17/2017:

I honestly wonder if there's a point to posting this data here week after week when the only thing people seem to do is break off into cursing the DCI and then each other...

Thanks for your work Matt and Ryan.

I completely concur and couldn't like this statement enough.

I appreciate the effort Matt and Ryan put in every week.

Thank you for continuing to do this: your contributions are insightful and a boon to vintage at large, unlike their threads. Please do not be deterred by residual vitriol of the community.

last edited by cutlex

@diophan and @chubbyRain thank you for the effort you take for these.

Regarding this thread: and people think I AM toxic. Jesus fuck.

We have people pointing to a poll in the Vintage MTG facebook group (who has people in it I am conviced don't see sublight or even play Magic, but just want tovbe keyboard justice warriors), a player trying to argue even though he bitched and swore not to play the format again, and other people who I dont think Ive ever seen at any of the major events, so I am convinced two-fisting games at their kitchen table are te extent of their experience.

Holy fuck. This is entertaining and pathetic at the same time.

@MSolymossy You shut your mouth!!!!

There, I feel apart of the anger now. 🙂

@mdkubiak No YOU shut YOUR mouth! (Sub-point: My daddy would whip your daddy's butt all over this playground!)

@Topical_Island Oh, those are fightin' words. Put up your dukes!

I've never that I can recall met @TropicalIsland but I have met @mdkubiak and I think it would be hilarious to see him actually throw a punch at someone.

(I feel like Smmenen in my ability to sidetrack the thread)

@MSolymossy said in Vintage Challenge - 6/17/2017:

I've never that I can recall met @TropicalIsland but I have met @mdkubiak and I think it would be hilarious to see him actually throw a punch at someone.

(I feel like Smmenen in my ability to sidetrack the thread)

Come on, I'm as rough and tumble as they come!

I find the last 7 posts far more interesting than the super repetitive soap boxing that goes on every week. Casual Trash-talk >>>>>> attempts at dissecting B&R nonsense.

@p3temangus said in Vintage Challenge - 6/17/2017:

I find the last 7 posts far more interesting than the super repetitive soap boxing that goes on every week. Casual Trash-talk >>>>>> attempts at dissecting B&R nonsense.

It's what I do. Making nonsense!

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