[HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs

@MaximumCDawg said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

@thecravenone There's no comparison. Rallier recovers one land when it enters the battlefield, and then only if you have Revolt.

Rallier gets back one land or something else good so I think they're at least in similar slots.

@MaximumCDawg said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

Can we think of any time a Vintage-playable effect got legs and was worse? Seems to me every time they do this the effect gets better.

Dark Confidant
Magus of the Moon
Edilion of the Great Revel
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
etc etc

For what it's worth, many times these creatures are played alongside the existing card rather than replacing them. EG, Thalia 1 and Thorn, Eidelon and Pillar. (And not to go too far off but it my few games with it, I've preferred Pillar due to all the creature removal that's been around recently)

@MaximumCDawg said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

@Brass-Man said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

@MaximumCDawg said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

Can we think of any time a Vintage-playable effect got legs and was worse? Seems to me every time they do this the effect gets better.

Magus of the Jar? Magus of the Bazaar? Magus of the Moat? Magus of the Abyss? Magus of the Library? Magus of the Tabernacle? Magus of the Wheel? Magus of the Will?

I mean... yeah, but... some of those did not JUST grow legs, they also got material drawbacks. Abyss kills itself. Wheel and Tabernacle and Bazaar and Will all cost more.

The best counterexamples are probably Jar and Moat. With Jar, I guess the analogy is whether Tinker/Shops are so critical to Crucible that it's not good without them in the same way that Memory Jar owes much of its existence to those cards. I'm not sure that one is fair either.

But Magus of the Moat is pretty spot-on as a counterexample, I admit. (I also love Magus of the Moat!)

Magus of the Moat was in Brian Kelly's Championship sideboard.

@The-Atog-Lord Magus of the Moat definitely has some advantages over Moat – and I really like it in Brian's list – but not enough that you see more Moats than Maguses in general. For the purposes of this thread, I think it's true that "adding legs doesn't ALWAYS make an effect better."

I think the differences are largely explored in vintage. Attacking and blocking is awesome, but it's easier to kill creatures than it is to kill artifacts (usually, depends on the matchup). Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon is often a tossup, I think.

As for this card, I think you would still rather have Crucible in a matchup like Landstill, where you really want Crucible to stick around, and they have lots of creature removal ... but the marginal advantage of a body against decks where Crucible isn't as key (e.g. Mentor), means that the card is more maindeckable than Crucible is. Tutorability by Green Sun's Zenith or other cards is another dynamic that isn't true about Magus of the Moon/Moat, so that's pretty interesting, too 😄

last edited by Brass Man

@thecravenone said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

Rallier gets back one land or something else good so I think they're at least in similar slots.

Rallier also puts the land right into play which acts as ramp and/or lets you immediately Strip something the turn you play it, even if you already played a land. That said, I wouldn't play Rallier if I was ONLY planning on returning lands with it (I'd want to build around it a little more). Still, I'm not interested in Rallier enough to bother testing it, but I'm definitely interested in seeing this card in action. I think that while they could both be run in the same deck, that sort of deck doesn't feel strong to me right now, and some lists that could use Excavator but not Rallier feel like they have a lot more potential to me

This makes the bicycle lands look a lot more interesting.

This card is pretty good against Thalia if she were ever an issue for a non-Oath green deck 👍

@desolutionist Could this card be great with Thalia?

Minus points for creativity, but man this card is so good for GW hatebears. Now they just need to print Null Rod on legs.

@Topical_Island said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

@desolutionist Could this card be great with Thalia?

I don't play Thalia... but I mean if they have a Thalia, I can prevent her from attacking and make my land drops every turn to just cast my spells despite her resistance

It is not uncommon to run two different creature types in a Cavern of Souls deck. I would want to try it in a Human-Cleric build. I think it looks strong enough to justify to test in a build a build like that with 4x Wasteland, 1x Strip Mine and then 2-4x Qhost Quarter, but only testing will tell if it is strong enough of course.

Many of the White Wheenie decks I have been playing you would name Cleric anyway if you had a Leonin Relic-Warder on hand along with various humans that were also Clerics in addition to Humans.

The list of Clerics that have seen regular play is decent, and most are humans (and all white if you want to go White-Green):

  • Containment Priest
  • Leonin Relic-Warder
  • Sanctum Prelate
  • Leonin Arbiter
  • True Beliver
  • Fiend Hunter

And even more see fringe play, also with a lot of humans among them (also White):

  • Preacher
  • Glowrider
  • War Priest of Thune
  • Grand Abolisher
  • Selfless Spirit
  • Mother of Runes,
  • Ethersworn canonist

And some not all White:

  • Sin Collector
  • High Priest of Penance
  • Geist of Saint Traft
  • Harsh Mentor
last edited by Uvatha

It's "easier" to remove than Crucible, but being a creature has some advantages too I suppose? Green Sun's Zenith seems interesting and it plays nice with Thorn effects. This is far from my type of card (:D) but I'm sure it's at least fringe-playable.

I sent a friend a Cleric Tribal deck a few weeks ago after realizing that Daru Spiritualist can't die to Walking Ballista activations. It ran Vizier of the Menagerie at the top end, as well as the infinite life combo of Daru Spiritualist, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim and Shaman en-Kor (all Clerics). Here's a rough maindeck based on what I had:

3 Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim
3 Containment Priest
4 Daru Spiritualist
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Harsh Mentor
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Shaman en-Kor
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Ramunap Excavator
2 Vizier of the Menagerie

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

There are very obvious problems with the deck, such as how little it chooses to disrupt the opponent. The original list had Starlit Sanctum in place of Wasteland, but a swap was made in order to include Ramunap Excavator. In the end, playing up the Ghost Quarter/Leonin Arbiter package that is used in Modern with Ramunap Excavator (and fewer colors) may be a much better starting point. However, very few decks in Vintage can deal with infinite life, so every Cleric that comes along is something I always take a second look at.

@desolutionist Yeah... I don't really play her much either... I was just on the GW bears tip too. I mean, 4x Wasteland and a Strip with this guy and Thalia's is just an all out assault on a mana base. Toss in Manglehorn in the SB for shops and that matchup must be great right? Play with 3 or 4 Ancient Tombs to blast out Big Thalia's and this dude? ... cursory thoughts

@Topical_Island There are many decks that are great against shops if they're allowed to cast 3 mana permanents with impunity. 😉

@MaximumCDawg I suppose you mean your statement to suggest that this card isn't good...

Firstly, there aren't a lot of decks that are good decks that are great against Shops if they are allowed to cast 3 mana permanents. By my count there is Mentor//Tempo... which absolutely meets this definition. And there is anything running Dack, which is probably that same deck. No other commonly played deck meets that definition my my estimation. White Eldrazi? With big Thalia? Merfolk for Silvergill?... not really.

Secondly, if you mean to suggest that casting 3 mana permanents is great against shops, but very rarely happens due to Shops' various methods of attacking mana and taxing... then I ask again. Isn't this card just very good against shops? It is wholly untouched by Thorn and Trinesphere, and renders their Wastelands and Stripmines nearly impotent once it hits the board, as well as being reasonably resistant to Ballista... if your statement presumes that landing 3 mana permanents is great against shops, this thing ought to be at least good.

@Topical_Island Naw, I think this card is great. I'm just not sure that you want to be leaning on a 3-cc card to fight shops. And, yes, I was talking about resolving Mentor.

The point being, I think your shops game still has to rely on cheap effects. If you are already loaded up on them, great, this card can stay in your deck post-sideboard, sure. But it's not part of an anti-shops package, I don't think.

last edited by MaximumCDawg

I want to use this guy with his sneke friend lotus cobra. Im preordering 4.

@MaximumCDawg In principle... I think you are absolutely right.

It is kinda interesting to think though, about this thing being a creature. That lowers its effective casting cost against Shops a lot. Again, 5 of the 9 taxing cards they run have no effect on this... making it, in terms of probability, much easier to cast than even a Crucible.

Math: 31% of top8 decks run Thorn, and average 4 per deck. 28% run Sphere and run 3.9. 26% run Trinisphere. (Also 9.7 run little Thalia, at a 3.9 average)

So if your opponent draws a hand of 7 and stares at you, there is a 12.3% chance they're holding Thorn, 10.9% they have a Sphere, around 3% they have Trinesphere, and about 4% they're holding Thalia... also, a 0.00002% chance that the guy is some hapless standard player who is about to watch his dinky Mardu Vehicles get stomped off the planet by magic as St. Garfield intended it to be.

Getting all those taxing effects down to one number is tough for a couple reasons, but without getting into it too deep, I'd guess its something in the neighborhood of 23 or 24% that they are holding some taxing effect. (This is guestimation though, and can't really be derived with precision without sum'a uncle ray's down home big data scrappin'... but its close anyway.)

SO let's say that barring the Mardu Vehicles scenario, there's about a 1/4 chance you are facing some taxing effect... now consider that if they are holding a taxing effect, the only one that leans on Excavator directly is the Sphere... 10% they are holding it... and even if we know they are holding some taxing effect for certain, there is still only 74% chance that card is not Sphere, and thus has no direct effect on our casting the Excavator

Interesting anyway.

@Brass-Man said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

@MaximumCDawg said in [HOD] Ramunap Excavator - Crucible With Legs:

Can we think of any time a Vintage-playable effect got legs and was worse? Seems to me every time they do this the effect gets better.

Magus of the Jar? Magus of the Bazaar? Magus of the Moat? Magus of the Abyss? Magus of the Library? Magus of the Tabernacle? Magus of the Wheel? Magus of the Will?

To be fair, the Magi that represent cards with activated abilities are naturally worse due to summoning sickness. Magus of the Wheel might have been better than Wheel itself had it been the same cost and with haste; you couldn't flusterstorm it or spell pierce it, also couldn't duress it. But yeah all those cards are markedly worse.

I took Ramunap to a 3-1 in a daily with many outs to a 4-2 in the Challenge (that had other deckbuilding issues) so I can give some preliminary thoughts to the card. I played it in a hatebears deck powered by 4 Ancient Tomb, some Elvish Spirit Guides, and on-color Moxen/ManaCrypt. In hatebears, 3 feels like the right number: it felt marginal against blue, given artifact mana, blue's access to basics, and a propensity for the PO versions to combo out early. It felt very good against Shops, both defensively and proactively on the Wasteland axis; ditto for Dredge, but assuming a Wasteland and less margin-for-error.

In the end, I don't think it has sufficient value to justify a second color all by itself. If the hatebears base color is white, I'm not sure a blue (black?) splash wouldn't be better in the long run. The only other green cards I ran was Deathrite Shaman which I wasn't a big fan of for being slow and lacking punch as a graveyard management tool, and 3-4 sideboarded Manglehorns, which were fine but not as devastating as hoped (better against Shops than PO which will default to the Tinker game plan). If Gush had been unrestricted, I also would have played Gaddock Teegs.

In retrospect, compared to hatebears, I think it might be best suited for the (B)UG-still decks previously mentioned earlier in the thread. Having just one Wasteland source makes the card far more powerful so a good draw engine is indicated to increase the likelihood of finding one. He can attack, of course, under the Landstill soft-lock, and blue decks offer better filtering when his effect would only be marginal. Hatebears or Eldrazi wouldn't want to play GSZ, because of the taxing issues and the lack of targets. I have no opinion of the card in other shells.

Last thought, and don't underestimate it: he makes the value of Jitte go up for deckbuilding purposes.

last edited by BazaarOfBaghdad
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