Bomberman 2017
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One of the challenges with MTGO is implementing infinite loops. Much digital ink has been spilled on this topic already, so I won't elaborate any further, however the reality is decks that utilize such loops are underrepresented on MTGO.
With that being said, I think one area that the recent restrictions of Gush and Probe have not been explored is Bomberman. In the last couple years, Bomberman was always on the fringe but never made it to the forefront. Perhaps the Gush-Mentor decks were the cause, but I don't think there is any sense in postulating that here and now. What I want to talk about is the viability going forward, and what such decklists might look like.
It would appear to me that there are 3 approaches that we can take:
- UW Bomberman
- UWb Bomberman
- Salvagers Oath
The next 3 decklists are not meant to be tuned Bomberman lists. Rather they are representative of what these decks might look like today.
Here is what I think a UW Bomberman list might look like today:
Land
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
3 TundraCreatures
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Trinket Mage
1 Walking BallistaPlaneswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind SculptorInstants/Sorceries/Artifacts
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Drain
4 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walksideboard
1 Plains
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Disenchant
2 Energy Flux
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Pithing Needle
2 Steel Sabotage
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Tormod's CryptHere is what I think a UWb Bomberman list might look like today:
Lands
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded StrandCreatures
2 Auriok Salvagers
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Trinket Mage
1 Walking BallistaInstants/Sorceries/Artifacts
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Disenchant
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mana Drain
1 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
2 Sensei's Divining Topsideboard
1 Aegis of the Gods
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grand Abolisher
2 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Serenity
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Swords to PlowsharesHere is what I think an Salvagers Oath deck might look like today (hat tip to Brian Kelly's most recent list):
Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Mana Confluence
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted DeltaCreature Package
1 Auriok Salvagers
1 Griselbrand
1 Dragonlord DromokaBusiness
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
2 Dack Fayden
2 Dig Through Time
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Mana Drain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Mana Crypt
3 Mental Misstep
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Oath of Druids
1 Ponder
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Repeal
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Sylvan Library
1 Time WalkSideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Magus of the Moat
1 Mental Misstep
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Sudden Shock
3 Tormod's CryptHere are some of my thoughts. Cavern of Souls is one of the better reasons to play this deck right now. There are a ton of Fow, Drain, and other counterspells going around.
The UW Bomberman is a little more consistent with the mana, being that it is only 2 colors.
Adding black gives access to Tasigur and Demonic. I also think Yawg Will deserves some consideration, as you can also add things like Gifts.
Salvagers Oath has the flexibility of an Oath deck with the combo finish of bomberman. Unfortunately, Brian Kelly seemed to be the only person who had a ton of success with the deck.
Walking Ballista has really been the largest addition to the deck in the recent months. It basically makes Spellbombs obsolete. This is not the case for Salvagers Oath, since you can't risk Oathing it up.
Some other thoughts/questions for the TMD hive mind that I have on the decks:
Is Monastery Mentor maindeck worthy?
What other toolbox cards do we want in the 75 (Cage, Needle, EE, Tormod's, are the most obvious... anything missing?)?
Are there any other colors we might want to consider?
Why is Tinker not utilized in past Bomberman decks?
Other Humans we might want? Magus of the Future, Dark Confidant, others? -
IMHO all 3 lists could benefit from Mana Crypt, Tinker, and Blightsteel. In the UW list Mana Crypt allows for the turn 1 Trinket Mage, and more likely turn 1 JTMS. The Tasigur list can also utilize Lions Eye Diamond as a second lotus, producing infinite mana, then using that mana to draw your deck. This also works with LED + Top + EE as well. Im also a huge fan of Magus of the Future in these lists. The synergy with Top is so powerful, and it being a human is ofc nice with caverns. Hope my 2 cents helps.
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Salvager is probably one of my favorite creature cards (after Goblin Welder of course :P). One of the fundamental questions we have to ask is that in a U/W/x style deck, what does Salvager + Lotus + Spellbomb/Ballista offer that current decks do not. You get the instant "I win" factor, but the combo is very soft to graveyard hate, Phyrexian Revoker, Spheres, Null Rod, Stony Silence, and Pithing Needle.
Another deck I want to look at that has similar weaknesses and relies on resolving a 4 CMC spell to "go off" is Paradoxical Outcome based decks. I feel like compared to PO, Salvager + Trinket mage is just clunkier + draws less cards.
What you gain however, is a better plan B. You can beat people with 2/2s and 2/4s. That used to be good enough. But recently, I feel like with the new creatures and how aggressive shops are, Eldrazi being a thing, and tokens + STP everywhere, that bomberman is just too fragile.
Of course I hope someone proves me wrong because I want to play bomberman again.
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@Naixin I agree it is fairly fragile. I wonder if adding LED to the lists could get around the Revoker/Needle issue? Spheres/Rod can be resolved with Hurkyl's. I don't think enough people are playing with Leyline of the Void, but Rest in Peace is an issue. The graveyard hate forces the deck to have a strong plan B, something other than attack with 2/2 and 2/4. This could be where Tasigur comes in, or perhaps even playing mentor ourselves. Has anyone really explored the possibility of Salvagers teaming with Mentor? We can also jam in Tinker and Robot to avoid dealing with that stuff as well. I feel like the tools are there; just need to come up with the ideal 75.
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I love the bomberman-style deck. I've played salvagers oath in multiple tournaments. I started tinkering with a paradoxical bomberman the day paradoxical outcome came out. I've tried U/W and UWb like you suggested. And looking over your lists I can't help but think that TfK may be better slotted as gifts ungiven. Especially in a 4-mana drain build like you presented.
If you have salvagers out and resolve gifts - you win. If you have salvagers out and resolve every TfK in your deck you still may not win.
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Last time I played bomberman was in a legacy tourney list with Mentor, Tasigur, salvagers, and Trinkey Mage, 4 Brainstorm 4 TfK and 4 LED. I ended up 2nd losing to MUD that locked me out. Against bug, miracles, Goblins, Belcher, and Death and Taxes I wrecked face. I really like Mentor, Tinkerbot, and Tasigurs as a plan B, but that makes the list very creature heavy so not sure how to on the correct numbers.
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Can someone please, please explain why Trinket Mage is playable. I don't understand it. Every time one is cast I think, "I am happy that is not a Dark Confidant or Snapcaster Mage."
Why is it good? Why? WHY???
No really, I'm open to the idea; I don't play the deck really ever; I don't understand it; please help me understand; thank you!
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This is the oath variant I've been playing with most recently. It's still a work in progress.
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@boggyb trinket mage is played because it can search up combo pieces (lotus, LED, spellbomb, ballista), cage, crypt, EE, sensei's top, etc.
It was basically a 3 mana demonic tutor with a body. I think it's less playable now because a 2/2 is just not as good anymore because of tokens and better creatures.
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Gush Mentor is exactly the reason that Bomberman was "bad," and why I quit Vintage for a year. Since the restriction, I have cashed 3 of 3 tournaments with the exact same decklist from a year ago (adding Walking Ballista). U/w/r is the place to be, not any of those other things.
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@Pokey UWr sounds interesting. Do you mind sharing your list? And is there a reason why you choose not to run PO?
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“ Red Deck Wins"
4 Trinket Mage
2 Auriok Salvagers
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Flusterstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Time Walk
3 Dack Fayden
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Walking Ballista
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded StrandSB:
2 Containment Priest
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Rest in Peace
2 Disenchant
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Fragmentize
1 PyroblastI lied earlier, I also added Fragmentize. PO may or may not be better, but Jace and I are bros.
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Just a thought,
Walking ballista should probably be a four of in any Bombaerman list and Hope of Ghirapur shouldn't be difficult to include. My 2Cents, at least.
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@Pokey said in Bomberman 2017:
PO may or may not be better, but Jace and I are bros.
It's true....Justin without Jace is like Joe Biden without Barack Obama (are we still doing that? If not, can we?)
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Niche scenerio, but should REB and Pyroblast switch MB and SB, in that Pyro can easily be fuel for DigCruise? Is fragmentize better than wear//tear in this list? Just curious. I like it alot tho. 3 dack and 3 jace seems beautiful, Im guessing the 3rd jace over brainstorm? Or is that just to keep Misstep targets low?
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@Ten-Ten Walking Ballista is good, but not THAT good. We are already weak enough to Null Rod, and it requires too much mana to be useful. Also, I've never once thought to myself, "This deck really wants a Xantid Swarm."
@Serracollector While Pyro is strictly better than REB, I prefer to play my Summer Magic REB (gotta be a baller). It hasn't cost me any games yet, so we'll keep doing that. I don't like Wear//Tear because I don't want to play red sideboard cards. If I did, I would be playing By Force. That being said, Fragmentize is getting cut anyway for 3rd EE or Moat. I have in fact eschewed Brainstorm for another Planeswalker.
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Those sir are all legit reasons. Ty. Love it.
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@Pokey Hope of Ghirapur is more of a time walk with legs that kills, in most cases anyway. GG with Salvagers out, no need for infinite mana. It's a highly underrated card indeed. Requires minimal resources/risk for a high reward. I actually didnt evaluate it as a Xantid Swarm, Just saying.
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Pretty sure there was a bet concerning Auriok Salvagers and Hope of Whatever with absolutely no takers. The card is not underrated, it's not a Time Walk, it's not GG with Salvagers (Swords either card and it breaks the loop), it's just bad in this context....
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@Ten-Ten white eldrazi, shops, bug control - all dont care about non-creature spells as much. That's not an insignificant amount of the meta right there. Oath is another one that iwll probably be online long before you get this combo out and once its online many oath variants dont need to cast spells to win. Then all the X/w decks packing StP like Chubby mentioned. Your opponent is still collecting cards in their hand on their turn.
Salvagers has so many ways to just lock out and win instantly that a soft lock is worse than a sub-par choice.
