@the-duressed I think it's also in a good place now because it deals with PWs too, so for the most part it avoids being bounced by Jace. The fact that Shops is basically a creature deck now also helps.
Sun Titan can brick pretty hard and be just a card that returns a few lands to play. The main problem with the Grisel/Emrakul package is being more vulnerable to Cage and worst in the mirror, since you depend more on Oath to win and can't hardcast your creatures.

@topical_island I see what you're saying, and I really like Sun Titan for a lot of the reasons you mention. But what surprises me is that a turn 1-2 Oath into Inferno is enough to seal up the game most of the time. It must be the fact that it kills in two attacks if there's nothing in the way, but does substantial crowd control if there are opposing critters on the board.

@fsecco That did help. Knowing that the Jace needs to be held in their hand in order for it to be an answer to Inferno Titan is a good piece of information.

You're both right about why Griselbrand and Emrakul probably shouldn't be the only plan, and I agree with you. Maybe I'm just spoiled by how completely these guys can warp the game with one activation or one attack (when things are going well), but Inferno is going to take some getting used to for me. The one other thing I'll say about him is that you don't have to play Tundras, which is nice.

last edited by the duressed

@the-duressed Another thing I forgot: Inferno Titan gets rid of Spirit tokens. Sun Titan gets chump blocked by any tokens you produced, greatly reducing it's clock (if you're not comboing out). Inferno Titan just get's through them quickly. There may also be some corner cases where Titan can turn around the token count in your favor in the mirror - but I doubt that comes in consideration very much.

Having an Inferno Titan get metamorphed also feels a lot less "well, there goes the neighborhood."

It's not a great feeling but compared to Emrakul of Griselbrand...

Question: Where is Oath right now?

Answer: Overperforming at Eternal Weekend, as always.

🙂

@the-duressed Yeah. Honestly that is a little surprising to me too. I play a lot of Oath, and the most common set up I run is Griselbrand, Salvagers, Emrakul. but at this point I might want to give a much harder look at Inferno. (I don't really like Sun Titan that much because there is so much graveyard hate floating around because of Dredge, which I think explains it's limited popularity and success in tourney play.)

Just looking at other decks, most of them just have very small winning chances against resolved Titan. It just melts tokens and robots, and great point about it ripping up planeswalkers @fsecco. So it doesn't kill as quickly as other creatures might, but it reduces the opponent's chances to win to near zero as soon as it hits the board, if that opponent isn't playing some kind of combo (Tendrils, Vault//Key, or maybe Dredge...) That segment of the meta is pretty narrow. And even then, you probably have reasonable chances to win by playing the control role.

@winterstar True story. I've actually had both Griselbrand and Emrakul get Metamorphed in tournament play believe it or not. I was able to win the Emrakul game by Stripmineing a land to put my opponent to exactly six permanents and then enjoying the first attack phase with a non-summoning sick Emrakul.

The Griselgame I lost terribly, since the opponent just drew a crap-ton of cards and put so many lock pieces on the table that I was done playing things ever. It was a boarded game, so a pair of cages came down as well and I was stuck. The Grisels traded and that was that. I think I scooped to Factory beats.

Never had a Titan get Morphed... that does make me think of one more good thing about Titan though... You could just turn your Orchard sideways again and Oath into a second copy of Titan... pretty unlikely the opponent is sitting on a second Metamorph... good winning chances. And if you ever get to swing with both Titans at once you melt their Titan entirely.

last edited by Topical_Island

@topical_island If you oath into a second Titan their Titan is already dead (3 from the oathed one, 3 from the other one attacking). 🙂

@fsecco Right you are sir! Even better. Also, Karakas can't find them. This just gets better all the time.

@fsecco just had this exact interaction in a game last night. Opponent morphed my titan, and I just oathed into another titan and killed it with the attack of the first one.

I played a few games last night with this iteration of oath, and it is really good. I especially liked the sideboard stormbreath dragon and thrun. Completely wrecked a land still opponent with them while they were holding multiple swords.

@mourningpalace Thrun still feels sketchy to me. But Stormbreath seems pretty great.

@fsecco Thrun seems medium unless you are in a field were exactly Landstill is huge for some reason. It would be sweet to punish a Landstill deck for playing Supreme Verdict over Wrath of God though. The uncounterablility seems great against blue control type things in general, but I doubt it's got enough beef to dominate the board or put on enough clock against anything that isn't Landstill... and even then, it just loses to Consecrated Sphinx or any number of combinations of Factories and Snapcasters...

I wonder, if we are really running Thrun, why are we not just running Tinker and Inkwell, with potentially Vault/Key as an alternate win? Maybe that's too many cards?

@topical_island Thrun is run instead of Inkwell because it can be easily cast and is uncounterable.

@fsecco Yeah... I understand. I'm just not sure what decks it actually moves your winning chances against. Landstill? Really? This is the card that Landstill can't handle? This feels more medium than Tsabo's Web to me... and that's saying something.

@topical_island I don't like it either. Stormbreath Dragon seems better in that slot. But it's a meta slot. Could be a plethora of things.

@fsecco true. It is cute tech at the very least, and maybe better than I'm giving it credit for.

@topical_island I saw it in a list and tried it out. So far it has only been good against blue based control decks like landstill. It is easy to hard cast which is the appeal of it I think. Probably a little too narrow though to be worth the slot.

@topical_island Althought the WTF??? From the landstill player is almost worth the slot to me, at least from a fun factor lol

@mourningpalace So, so true. Again, imagine the opponent holding a Supreme Verdict against this card. Regeneration? What is this? 1999?

In fact speaking of 1999, go one step further and imagine that the opponent is Allen Iverson, on Landstill, holding Supreme Verdict. Regeneration? Regenerr-A-tion? Regeneration? RE-generation? You talkin' bout' regeneration? Not indestructible... not in-de-STRUCT-able... but regeneration...

Yes, I will say that much. If I knew I was playing vintage against Allen Iverson, and he was coming with Landstill, I would play Thrun in a heartbeat. #TrollingAllen

last edited by Topical_Island

I tested Thrun and found it made no sense to play a 4/4 onto boards filled with opposing Spirit tokens. Carnage Tyrant would be better in this slot. Stormbreath Dragon on the other hand is amazing. And Gisela does the most important work against Workshops. I have lost to Shops after Oathing up Griselbrand, Titan, and so forth but Gisela specifically shuts down their deck. Bear in mind, her clause means that Walking Ballista's activated ability will do exactly 0 damage each time, so she closes off the ways in which you can lose even when things are going your way--this is an important concern given how hyper aggressive Shops has become.

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